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Hi guys.
Currently transcribing a lot and melodies and phrases are easier and easier to get down. What I do struggle with though is the process of linking the changes in a tune to the solo/melody line I'm transcribing. I'm not completely sure how the relationship between the chord and the scale the melody lies under fits together. For instance I've transcribed a G-7 chord and the melody could come from a G Dorian scale - but it could just as well come from a D# Ionian since the notes in the melody are also found in that scale? So how do I make sure I pick the right scale when I try to analyze my transcriptions? I'm still fairly new at transcribing.
Best wishes,
Daniel
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10-05-2016 05:10 AM
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Daniel honestly if you want to analyze you should step away from the chord scale relationships and just focus on what the note is in relation to the chord whether it is a chord tone non-chord tone, passing tone etc.
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Analyze based on function. I agree with maybe "putting the scales away."
D#? Yikes.
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I've gotten better at transcribing melodies and single notes, but with chords , I try and leverage my intellectual knowledge progressions, cadences and cycles to help me. Usually that means, most of the time, the chords are going somewhere or return to somewhere or they will eventually get somewhere but are taking a long route ( I.e., they return to the one chord , move to the relative minor, moved to the four chord, et Cetera ). I make sure I know the sound of basic vanilla progressions like 1625, 3625, 251 in the relative minor, I7 or I° To IV, etc, As a secondary dominant to the four chord . That sort of thing. I play the melody against these various chords and see which one sounds the best or the most correct. Basically if I can generate The most vanilla pattern, that's fine for my purposes. Because it's hard. I just feel good that after a long period of work, I can hear the intervals and can make some times at transcribing the melody. Which is actually more important anyway .
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Originally Posted by Daller94
Originally Posted by Daller94
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Or to put it another way is the chord scale G Dorian or G Phrygian (mode 3 of Eflat). I would look at the chords before and after together with the associated melody and bass. In making my choice I would ask which mode offers the least change, is there a functional harmony in progress ( a II V perhaps). Sometimes playing along with the recording can help confirm the best choice.
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Originally Posted by Guitarzen
What are you transcribing btw?
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Thanks for all the replies! I'm currently transcribing time after time chet baker version. How do I get better at spotting tonal centres in a song? Especially tunes with many modulations?
Thanks again
Daniel
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For stuff that happens on traditional style changes:
- What chord or chord progression does the line happen on?
Perhaps the most important thing. If you know what chord a line happens on, you understand what the harmonic context is. In the case of your line, what chord is it over?
That'll tell you what scale it is (unless it's an outside line that doesn't agree with the underlying harmony)
Other stuff:
- What are the chord tones (usually there's some triad or seventh chords notes in there, albeit sometimes not the chord that's underneath :-))
- What's the rhythm, where are the accents and which notes are important?
- If some notes don't seem to make sense - is it the blues? (e.g. b5, b3, b7 on major - Quite often it is)
- If it's obviously based on a scale - it goes up and down or some sort of pattern, analyse it that way.
- For modern stuff you might see it leaping about all over the place - if so it might be intervallic chord scale stuff.
And go from there.
You will develop an ear and an eye for this stuff.Last edited by christianm77; 10-06-2016 at 06:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by Daller94
Check out Bert Ligon's "jazz theory resources". Not everything is about chord scale, and he covers more basic approaches and addresses how jazzers actually think about this stuff beyond "what scale?". It's mostly not that simple, or really more accurately...., that COMPLICATED....
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Or - you could just not do any analysis at all.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Daller94
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Originally Posted by Daller94
Sometimes all the analysis needed is "this note set sounded cool over this chord/chords."
Then you memorize, transpose, play around with the line and make it yours. No "theory" required.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Welcome.
There's a 1001 reasons to transcribe...just think of it as accumulating sounds right now. You get the sounds in your head, they become yours, to the point of where they eventually come out naturally when you play.
I hate the whole "jazz is a language" metaphor, but here's one place where it works for me. It's vocabulary.
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Also, there is an intuitive aspect to it as well. By 'transcribing' something you are listening to it really closely, presumably to the point where you can sing and play it. You internalise it.
Some players are happy to leave it as that, not so many these days, but the important thing is to learn phrases and hear them in your mind's ear.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Here is a sheet I give my students on transcription - it is intended to be general and not just apply to jazz.
Processes for Transcription and Integration
Benefits:
- Learn the techniques of your favorite players (harmony, melody, rhythm, articulation, etc.)
- Learn how they structure their phrases and solos
- Learn tendencies not just of an individual players, but of different genres
- Be able to incorporate elements of their playing into your own improvisation regardless of key, tonality, or area of the fretboard.
Processes:
1. Try to figure out solos you like, especially the parts that get you really excited. Using software like "Transcribe!" helps for this a lot. (Link here) it is $50 but the ability to loop, slow down in high fidelity, etc, is really worth it. To be able to loop small sections (rather than continuously rewinding and finding your place) is one of the best functions of this software; it is a HUGE time saver. Another program is Audacity, which is free but a little less user-friendly and with lower quality functions.
2. Write down (or at least say out loud as you play) how each note relates to the key (whether it's root, b3, etc.)
2a. if the solo is over a chord progression (as opposed to a one-chord vamp or riff) then also acknowledge how each note relates to the chord of the moment/measure. (For example, in the key of C major the note E is the third of C, but it is the seventh of the IV chord.)
3. Try to match the rhythm of the line as well as you can. (if you are familiar with writing rhythmic notation then it is great to try write down the rhythm of the line.)
3a. Try to match articulations - bends, slides, hammer/pull, vibrato, etc, as best as you can.
3b. You want to be able to play the line with the original recording (even if at a slower tempo) and match rhythm, feel, and articulations. (Great to record yourself doing this.)
4. Sing the phrase with Solfege (moveable-do)
5. For every phrase you really like, try to play it on as many string sets and fingerings as possible (in the same key.) You don’t necessarily have to memorize all the alternative fingerings, but it’s important to see where they are. It’s great to note the fingerings that are easiest!
6. Make sure you can play the phrase in different keys - and different positions. Practicing the phrase in all 12 keys isn’t completely necessary as many of the fingerings will be identical, but doing at least four keys is useful.
With enough time spent doing this you will be able to make observations about the consequence of different sounds and phrases and you will also intuitively assimilate a lot of the player’s approach. The process will also make your ear and your knowledge of the fretboard much stronger.
In the jazz world we say this is building "vocabulary." Rather than just studying how scales are put together, you're studying how phrases are put together.
7. To do extra work on integrating the line or concepts into your own improvisation, here are some suggested activities:
- Play the same notes with a different rhythm
- Play the same rhythm with different notes
- Try to adjust the line for different tonalities (major vs minor, different modes, different chord progressions, etc.)
- Repeat the line many times and improvise variations
- Create alternative endings or beginnings to the line
Another note - you can do a LOT of very valuable work with just a short phrase. However, doing a quicker process with more material can help with discovering tendencies of a particular player or genre, or being able to compare approaches between players.
Similarly, if you figure out longer sections of a solo (or an entire solo) you can see more about how the player develops his or her solo from beginning to middle to end, rather than just considering individual licks.
- Learn the techniques of your favorite players (harmony, melody, rhythm, articulation, etc.)
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Can I steal this?
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Jake Estner
www.JakeEstner.com
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Will do. Thanks, I think it's excellent.
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Thanks/you're welcome!
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Originally Posted by Daller94
You are a musician not a scientist.
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I agree, but I do get the natural want to know the "why."
But whenever I get myself thinking to much about that, I remind myself the "why" is BECAUSE IT DOES.
Theory is just putting a name to "because it does."
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