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Well, I'll let Mr. Wanock speak for himself if he catches this thread. But what I take from this idea is a little different than what you are saying. I take it to mean something like this: To improvise you have to learn to juggle a few things at the same time. One of them is to develop the automatic reflex to navigate and weave through changes with single note lines, even if your not really coming up with them on the fly. Of course that's not really improvising, but it's one part of the skill set needed to improvise.
Originally Posted by Kojo27
To follow the language analogy further, the Bert Ligon approach, (reducing vocabulary to a handful of formulas) is learning the grammar first. Learning a bunch of licks and stringing them together is more like learning conversation first. Anyone who has studied a second language will understand the difference in this analogy. In any case, either approach is important, and they are not mutually exclusive. I personally think it works better for ME to learn a few phrases to get the hang of this language, the rhythm, the intonation, the inflections, the accents (to continue the spoken language analogy) FIRST. Then, study some grammar, then go back to more vocabulary... So on.
As to the how, this is what I've been doing lately:
1. Discover the lick, Learn the lick, try it out.
2. Play it on a single string if possible. ON ALL Strings. This helps to get a feel for the interval jumps and general contour of the musical idea. Not necesarilly with the intent to execute it, just to SEE the intervals better.
3. Explore the most comfy fingerings.
4. Play those fingerings in all string combinations possible. Ie: starting on 6th, on 5th, on 4th, etc...
5. Take it through the cycle in different ways. One time on the same string set, each possible set. One time changing string sets, or using only two sets of strings. Depends on the nature of the phrase, there may be other permutations.
If you learn one major, one minor, one ii V, one dominant lick, you can string these together over a harmonically simple tune. I try to alternate a lick, an arpeggio run, another lick, an arpeggio run. Then switch, an arpeggio run, another lick... Or arpeggio, lick, rest, arpeggio, lick, rest. One bar each.
The amount of concentration you need to develop to do this impeccably over and over for a long time is considerable. But it's a start, at least it is for me. I figure if I keep at it, I'll be able to keep that level of engagement up to what I would need for a two hour set, with a repertoire of 50 to 100 tunes, in front of an audience. Slowly adding more and more licks. As I discover particular pieces of vocabulary that I just LOVE, I will dissect them and internalize them further by altering them to fit other chord types, or using just the notes and other rhythms, or using JUST the rhythms and different notes all together.
All of this work is explored to a certain extent in the Hal Crook books "how to improvise" and "ready, aim, improvise".
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07-12-2012 08:19 PM
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BTW,
The following are great sources of phrases.
1. Charlie Parker Omnibook + charlie parker for guitar. I have been transcribing mostly by ear, then I check my work with the first book, and look for further analysis and exploration in the second book.
2. Jazz guitar - Charlie Parker Lines. Awesome book with all the good stuff prepared and seperated into 1 or 2 bar phrases in different types: maj, min, ii V, short ii V, etc. When I just want to grab a lick and play it over changes, this is the easiest route.
3. Charlie christian - the art of jazz guitar. Well, another book of transcriptions. But I figure if I'm going to be stealing licks from someone, it should be these two guys first.
4. Joe Pass - Jazz Lines. A video and transcritpion book From back in the day. As someone already mentioned here, a gold mine of tasty stuff.
EXTRA CREDIT for gypsy jazz fans or old schoolers:
5. Les Plans de Django. A compendium of licks by the OG. Nabbed it from the djangobooks forum. Seems to be fan made and unpublished. So grab it fo' free! It's in french, but you know, it's also in that universal language.
6. La guitarre manouche by Daniel Givone. more for beginers interested in gypsy jazz. Has a set of licks for all chord types based of the caged forms that helps put it all into place for the noob. Also in french, but common sense can lead you through most of it.
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Mark - thanks for the tip it looks like a great book.
Kojo- I hope I didn't hijack your thread with my question. As a matter of fact, I think I've figured it out for myself and I think the answer is relevant: The 'academics' are actually just another way of getting to the same place, i.e., learning licks. I don't think too many players get up on the bandstand and just 'create' - play lines that they never practiced. Well, maybe Keith Jarrett does, but I don't think that's how it works for most people. So whether you get to a lick with some methodolgy or copy it from someone else, I don't think it matters, as long as you master it and can call it up when you need it.
Anyway, Kojo, thanks for starting this very interesting discussion.
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Hey A_Train, Originally Posted by A_Train
If I had a nickel for ever thread I've hijacked...
Sometimes, imo, in a thread that has built some intensity, there *needs* to be a minor hijacking - to let it breathe for a minute before going back to the trenches. "Trenches" is too strong a word, but I think it makes the point.
It was a good question - thanks.
kj
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This is another good book on Charlie Christian's playing:
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Charlie-C...ignature+licks
Lot of transcribed stuff--heads, solos, ensemble riffs--and you get to hear them played.
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This is all terrific stuff - thanks and keep it coming!
lao ce – I *love* the idea of "mental shredding" – haha. It bugs me, too - but I'd never quite put such an apt name to it. Very descriptive.
I appreciate all of you guys/gals -- thanks Vinny, Mark, Hall Pass (cool name) - Jazz Reggie. Sorry if I'm forgetting anybody.
Oh, btw, Markerhodes and Randall Jazz: I went to Amazon and bought the Charlie Christian books. That era, and BEFORE, is where my heart is right now. I dig Eddie Lang, Jimmy Shirley, Carl Kress, H. Volpe - what some talent there was back before YouTube!
Nosoyninja: Thanks for all the super sources. Hal Crook’s books are both out of print; Amazon had no copies of “How to Improvise” – they had some used copies of “Ready-Aim-Improvise,” and the cheapest was $59 and the pricey one was about $350. Yikes. If there are any books similar - that present the same basic information, do tell.
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If I *do* set out to learn a sheet-load of licks, I might do it something like this. My own method, which might work, might not:
I'd try to compose a solo over some standard that has all the main chord types but isn't too complicated. I'd compose this solo using licks from wherever I could get them - from Vignola's "240 Jazz Licks" - that should do it, as they're arranged by type and by length.
Then I'd practice this solo of licks until I could play it with emotion. Play the tune in all 12 keys, or at least in the "jazz" keys, and play the licks in various places/registers on the guitar.
Next, I'd pick another song and try to include as many of the same licks as possible. I might go ahead and compose new solos for two songs. I want to get the licks down.
I might practice the licks over a ii-V-I track, or whatever would let me drill them.
Now it's time for some new licks. Rinse, lather, repeat. Put the new licks into the same songs, and into NEW or different songs. Work at playing slowly and mixing the new licks with the first group.
I'd want to be able to sing all these licks.
Etc. This is embryonic! I made it up right here, as you can probably tell. If any of you want to run with it, make it better, stronger, faster -- please do. It's a "method." I'm a methodical person -- I like to do as much as possible in the time I have for working. Any comments on this approach are welcome, and will be appreciated.
kj
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Looks like the Jamey Aebersold store also carries the Hal Crook books:
Jamey Aebersold Jazz: Search
I'm not quite sure what to make of his books. From what I could tell from previews, he has an enjoyable writing style with some good humor, but on the other hand, a lot of the content comes off like an encyclopedia or textbook, more suited to being reference material for a class than being read cover to cover. Any feedback on this from anyone who has worked through "Ready, Aim, Improvise!" on their own?
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In the Old Testament book of Ecclesiastes---written a couple thousand years before the printing press came along---we read, "Of the making of many books, there is no end." That was then; it's worse now.
Mind you, I love books. But I have come to realize I'm better off digging into one book for several months than skipping through a dozen in that time. Others doubtless absorb and integrate material faster than I do--God bless them all, every one!
There's a lot I need to learn, but I play every day. work on useful things, and I there's not much more I can take on now, so for once, I'm not antsy to add another book to the pile of things I own. This mood will doubtless pass around the first of the month, but for now, I'm content with what I got. Heck, I wish I'd mastered one-tenth of the material in the books I already have!
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My opinion is that nothing could be farther from the truth. Others who have worked from it can chime in too. It is one of the most practical and real world textbooks I have ever seen on the subject of improv. No other text reduces what needs to be learned to such a molecular level. It assumes you already have a knowledge of theory and a basic technical mastery of your instrument. And from there, takes you the rest of the way to work on many, if not all, the issues involved in playing solos over changes. Originally Posted by JazzReggie
That means stuff like chord tone soloing, chord scale soloing, rests, articulation, note density, rhythmic displacement and syncopation, harmonic complexity, solo structure, quoting melodies, double time...
Much like the Mick Goodrick book, it assumes a certain maturity and motivation from the student and dispenses with the recipies, tricks, and rules typical of other method books.
It also includes a lot of info on psychological aspects of playing like dealing with criticism, learning to record yourself and critique it properly, developing a practice schedule, concentration, visualization, etc.
It's really more of an intermediate than a beginner book. Oh, and also, the two books, "how to improvise" and "ready, aim..." are complementary and frequently reference each other.
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I should clarify my questions. It wasn't my intent to question the quality of the books, and my apologies if I've offended anyone. I haven't read them myself, and am not in any position to criticize them. Originally Posted by nosoyninja
Even with instructional books, there are those that you can sit down and read in a few weeks or months cover to cover, while others are more like textbooks that will take a very long time to go through and you'll likely refer back to numerous times in the future. I was trying to get a sense of which end of that spectrum the books fall under. I suspected based on the length and table of contents that it's more the textbook end, yet the engaging writing style and humor aren't something you typically find in a textbook.
Anyways, they sound like great books. Sorry for derailing the thread.
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No worries! Originally Posted by JazzReggie
I just wanted to describe the books clearly based on your questions. Sometimes written text doesn't transmit the correct intentions, so it's all cool...
Anyway, to get back to vocabulary: I just downloaded the Frank Vignola "50 jazz licks you must know" as an app for the iPad and iPhone. Pretty cool. Some useful stuff in there. Pretty convenient to have in your pocket.
Also, the other Frank Vignola lick book mentioned before (240 licks or something) can be found on google books. You can read the first few pages as a LEGAL preview, which includes quite a few actual pages of licks.
k
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"Read not overmuch, lest your head should fall off." - Rg Veda Originally Posted by markerhodes
"A cardinal rule is, if you're going to imitate somebody, just imitate someone who plays a different instrument, and you've got it made" Paul Desmond (quoted in Joy of Improv, Frank.)
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If reading a huge lot would make your head fall off, I'd be a creepy-looking bastard, sitting here typing. Originally Posted by ten left thumbs
kj
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Mountains of good advice in this thread! Not sure what I can add that has not been posted already. These are a few things that dig and have done...
Knowing theory (addressing the harmony specifically and/or generally, etc, without hang-ups).
Knowing intervals 100% (fretboard, ear, theory, inversions, in groupings, against the chord, etc).
Knowing how Galper's Forward Motion works to create momentum in time (release-beats, hyper-peters, superimposed meters, displacement, accents, and all that bebop phrasing goodness).
Reading through Bert Ligon's Linear Harmony material (understanding outline construction/manipulation, etc).
Listening to TONs of jazz and non-jazz music that appeals to my aesthetic senses, and copying licks (regardless if there is guitar present or not!).
Then I try to pull it all together into my own framework- My hands, my tone, my groove, etc. Jazz is custom-made by each player- that's the coolest part, IMHO.
Last edited by JonnyPac; 07-15-2012 at 05:02 PM.
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Hey guys. Just wanted to add a mention of this book: Les wise: the bebop bible. My guitar teacher lent it to me and I've been going through a few of the phrases this past week. Not all the phrases are to my taste, but the book itself is organized in a very cool way.*
Most phrases are presented as 2 or 3 bar "sentences" that can be either divided into smaller parts as "words" or joined together to form "paragraphs".
This is not in itself anything new, but the phrases are organized by starting tone (eg. Root, 3rd, etc...) and can thus be strung together easily by matching starting and ending tones for each phrase.
So say you choose a I maj phrase that starts on the root but happens to end on the 5th (G in key of C). *You can then find a ii min phrase that starts on the 5th (A in this case) and string them together. The phrases will lead into one another nicely and sound pretty musical because they are only one tone apart.
Anyone else use this book?
K
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I don't have it yet, nosoyninja, but I'd like to go back to the original question of the thread: *HOW* are you approaching memorization or "internalization" of a "Bible" of bebop licks? Did your teacher give you a method? Is it a "riff a day" -- or is there any method at all? Originally Posted by nosoyninja
This is what always threw me when amassing licks. *HOW*? One at a time? Surely not, I'd think. Ten a week, over and over for the week, then move to another ten? I'm just speculating.
What say you?
kj
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I know some excellent players who never learned "licks," and I know some who can quote all kinds of stuff from legendary players. I guess it depends on your approach to music.
I think those who want to take the "learning licks" approach need to deal with bebop at some point. Bird and Trane can be a bit much when you're trying to learn the bebop vocabulary, but I've always liked to steal from trumpeters like Clifford Brown, Fats Navarro and Lee Morgan. It's easy to hear the parts, they don't play as fast as a saxophonist, and the playing is brilliant.
I think a software program like Transcribe is a better investment than videos and books. Learning by hearing is a great way to internalize the vocabulary. There's a lot of music in those classic phrases, and much of it can be reworked to sound very modern. In my view, that kind of process is more conducive to musical growth than learning licks from videos.
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Well, I just do what I already mentioned in post 28 in this same thread. So as an example, I worked on All the things you are last month. I had one lick of each type: Maj, Min, Dominant, long ii V, short ii V. I just started plugging them in for each chord of the tune, transposing to the desired chord, and sometimes maybe altering the end or beginning to make it flow better from one phrase to the next. Originally Posted by Kojo27
I don't have it yet, nosoyninja, but I'd like to go back to the original question of the thread: *HOW* are you approaching memorization or "internalization" of a "Bible" of bebop licks? Did your teacher give you a method? Is it a "riff a day" -- or is there any method at all?
This is what always threw me when amassing licks. *HOW*? One at a time? Surely not, I'd think. Ten a week, over and over for the week, then move to another ten? I'm just speculating.
What say you?
kj
For the next tune, I use another set of phrases. Again, the point is not necessarily to amass a bag full of licks, but just to have a strategy that will help you navigate and approach the changes with a certain sense of purpose. Of course, there´s always one or two licks from the previous tune that I really liked that I´ll try to keep fresh by playing them during my warmups.
Learning a new set of licks takes maybe 2 or 3 days for me, depending on how much time I have for practice that day (usually between 1 and 1.5 hours of practice, of which maybe 30 to 45 minutes will be devoted to acquiring vocabulary).
But that´s only one part of what I do with a tune. I also find various ways to navigate the arpeggios of each chord in the tune, and also find any and all ways to play the chords in drop 2, drop 3, shells, in all string sets. Also I try to do one chorus of chord melody. So my sort of "mid-term exams" for a song are a chorus of comping chords, a chorus of chord melody, a chorus of arpeggios, then a chorus of vocabulary. Then the "final exam" for the tune is to play through one chorus of the changes combining one measure of: Vocabulary, Arpeggio, chord, rest.
On a good day, the final exam sounds ALMOST like a solo. On a bad day, it at least keeps my concentration tuned into the right place as I navigate a tune. The final step is to record myself doing the head, the chords, then one chorus of this combo of arps, vocab, chords and rests. That´s when I´m done with the tune for the time being. This process has taken me about a month or two as I have only done it with 3 tunes and will start on a 4th in about a week.
This system seems to be working for me as I feel I´m learning the following things first and foremost:
- not get lost through the changes (what´s the next chord again?)
- not get lost inside of a measure or phrase (can always land on the 1)
- what sounds musical to me in a particular phrase, arpeggio
- combine different "modes" of thinking (arps, chords, vocab)
I´m also learning a lot of other little things as I do this that can't really be qualified easily, but Im sure will be obvious with time as I go back and hear my recordings through the months.
I would love to hear input from more experienced players regarding this approach.
(phew! sorry for the long post!)
K
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Oh - you're quite welcome, and sorry if I took 100 years to get back to you. Love your response here. Agreed - finally. Not so long ago, I thought licks of any sort should be shot and killed on sight. Not so now - but still, the goal is to create on the spot, I think. I hope. Originally Posted by A_Train
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Originally Posted by nosoyninja
Thannks, nosoyninja! (I loved you long post. Most of us here are fast readers, I imagine. Good skimmers, so don't worry about post length, as long as you're saying something.
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Hey guys, hope you don't mind me chipping in on this thread but I find the whole 'learning licks' thing to be an interesting topic.
For my part, trying to learn other peoples 'licks' is only a small part of the story. I tried this approach for many years and spent a lot of money and time trying to amass a repertoire of licks to draw upon.
However, in my view, a good improvised solo is like a good story; it has a first line that should grab you, a theme or repetition, often a build up of tension and then a release or conclusion.
Simply regurgitating a string of pre learnt licks won't give you this.
What licks can do, however, is help you to understand how notes and rhythms sound over chords which, with time and experience, can be adapted to suit the situation. As such, they are useful but will not by themselves lead to good improvisations.
Let's think about this. Do Bill Frisell or Pat Metheny sit down and string together a load of pre learn licks when improvising? Did Miles or Coltrane do this? The answer is no. However, they studied the 'licks' of previous players merely as a way of learning the vocabulary of jazz.
A previous post recommended Paul Berliner's great book on jazz improvisation and, having read it, can heartily recommend it.
I suspect that some players on this forum may disagree with some of what I have said here although I hope some of the above makes sense and is useful to others.
Cheers guys
Carl.
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I agree it's only a part of the whole but there's no doubt many jazz greats learned some solos by their heroes note-for-note. Charlie Parker did this and no one can he lacked inventiveness! Originally Posted by CP40Carl
I think there's an area between 'licks' and 'things you came up with yourself.' Lots of things you hear great jazz players do---like running a series of triads in an ascent, or using diminished patterns over 7 chords---are not quite licks but they're not something you come with on your own, either. They are things you develop a taste for when you listen to a lot of jazz. You hear it a lot and when you figure out how to do it, you like doing it. But it's not always the same. A lot of these things come up in set spots----say you're playing a chord melody and you have two bars of the one chord. Well, you want to fill that space, but it's just a fill, not a new theme, so you're apt to do something there that works, maybe something you've done before, and you may vary it but you're not really thinking about how much, it just comes out THIS way this time. That's not a lick but it's not new either, it's more a WAY of handling something that comes up a lot in tunes.
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Hey Carl, Originally Posted by CP40Carl
Actually, I agree with about all you said. It just doesn't cut it -- in any way -- to play strings of stolen licks, trying to pass it off as improvisation. People aren't stupid; other guitar players certainly aren't stupid when you're "licking" (I like that term for it) and when you're speaking from within your own musical heart and soul. Licking isn't improvising! It's playing "tape recorder," as Leon White said in one of his great guitar books. He goes on, "And no one can do that as well as a tape recorder so you may as well hang it up, or back up -- and start again."
I don't call myself a jazz player, yet. I suspect that, armed with the little I do understand, and the chops I have, many would wear "I Play Jazz" tee-shirts. I can improvise melodic (non-blues/rap) music in some Latin styles, for example -- and love that. But I want to go farther, I dig jazz standards, so that's what I want *really* to do the right way.
Something in me revolts at the thougt of copying licks *to play*. To study them, that's different. But as for playing, I don't know but a handful of jazz "licks." Maybe I'll never learn, but I don't sense misgivings lingering about as I practice.
kj
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I don't think the audience much cares whether you just came up with a lick or you've played it a hundred times before; they care whether it sounds good to them. Lot of players have soloed over the same tune a bunch of times and found things that work and the audience love and so they repeat them. There's nothing wrong with that. Originally Posted by Kojo27
That said, it's good to learn how to improvise. It's a craft worth the effort it takes to develop.
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