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What is your take on absolute / perfect pitch?
Some time ago I was checking out this perfect pitch program by David Lucas Burge.
For starters the guy seems to be rambling. I listened to the 1st hour or more of his program and he's talking in circles and constantly repeating himself. It takes him like 10 minutes to say something that could have been said more clearly in a couple of seconds.
Furthermore he's constantly claiming that no musician can ever be truly complete without perfect pitch. Kind of a presumptiuos claim given that most great musicians don't have it.
All in all I remained sceptic to say the least because:
1) I'm not sure his program actually works. His rambling, presumptiuos claims and generally annoying method of expressing himself kind of gave me the feeling of being conned.
2) Even if it works is it worth the effort? Or would the time be better spent simply playing and working on my RELATIVE pitch as I do now?
What do you think?
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02-10-2012 12:14 AM
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Just for definition purposes, I'm defining perfect pitch or absolute pitch as always being able to tell what pitch is being played and to do it easily with no reference pitch being given and always getting it right. There is no such thing as "I sort of have perfect pitch" under my definition.
I've never met an adult who acquired perfect pitch as an adult. And, I took college ear training (relative pitch training) from a professor who had been teaching ear training for 20 years. She was asked in our class, she said she has never known anyone who developed perfect pitch as an adult.
There were two students in my ear training class with perfect pitch (both Asian btw), they said they had perfect pitch since they were children.
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I talked to a music prof about perfect pitch and he seemed to think that you have it or you don't. That's not to say we couldn't train ourselves to have very good pitch.
I was also interested in whether it would be possible for me to obtain perfect pitch with training and he said the best most people can do is relative by using some system that escapes me now...it had to do with playing 3,4 chords that contained all of the notes in a given scale
Does that sound familiar to anyone? Apparently it was a worthwhile method that some of the students found success with.
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The only perfect pitch I'm aware of as being real, came from one "Louisiana Lightning" . . . aka "Gator" . . . aka Ron Guidry. I was fortunate to experience the "perfect pitch" 9 times in a row. That was back on August 7th, 1984, when LA Lightining struck out Carlton Fisk, Tom Paciorek and Greg Luzinski back to back to back on 9 consecutive pitches. My beloved Yankees went on to blank the White Sox 7-0. That inning is now referred to "The Immaculate Inning"
Other than that, I believe that perfect pitch is an elusive myth. Accurate pitch perception is probably a more appropriate term. I also like the term relative pitch and its concept as stated by annis1001.
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Love it. I saw that game on WPIX-11, when you didn't need cable to see games.
Originally Posted by Patrick2
I'll say one thing about perfect pitch; it has nothing at all to do with being a good musician, so don't get too worked up about it. And don't waste even a nickel on any "you can have perfect pitch" type courses. Just try to develop relative pitch.
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I wish more than anything you could aquire pitch through some course. I personally happened upon a complete set of the course at a church where I teach guitar lessons. I listened to all of the CD's and came away with the same impression as the OP.
I also found a couple of threads on the forum, here, that kind of discouraged me from pursuing any further.
Ear Training
Think about it. If it was possible wouldn't every musician you know be talking about it? Why don't I personally know someone who's acquired it among all of my music ed colleagues, music major friends, others on this forum. If it was for real, they'd teach it in college and it would probably cost a lot more than what it does now. It would be such a valuable skill that it seems like it would be worth whatever. I've never personally communicated with any real person who says this thing is for real.
Burge is sending you on a musical snipe hunt, and if you give up because you're impatient and infuriated with his teaching style (the way that everyone seems to be), you didn't try hard enough or have enough faith or something.
My honest opinion is that it's almost a complete scam.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 02-10-2012 at 11:03 AM.
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"My honest opinion is that it's almost a complete scam."
Mine too...except I'd remove the word 'almost'
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I know players who, from a LOT of transcription and formal ear training, have a very good ear for pitch but do not naturally have perfect pitch.
I play with these two horn players who are both really exceptional. One has perfect pitch, the other falls into the description above. Their ears are really equal - they can both hear long ii V lines and play them back note for note.
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This. Originally Posted by aniss1001
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Just to clear this up:
Perfect/absolute pitch = the ability to recognize notes without a reference note.
Relative pitch = the ability to recognize notes given reference note. In other words what we're all doing when we learn to recognize INTERVALS and transcribe and such.
And personally I've never met ANYONE with perfect pitch. Even though I've met 100s of musicians. But I have heard from a few trustworthy people I know that they have once met one.
And yes the general consensus is off course that it's something you simply have or don't. That it isn't something one can learn like relative pitch. But that doesn't necessarily make it true. Pergaps it IS posible to learn but noone has yet formalized a method. Dunno..
Hehe Don't get the "almost". Either it's a scam or it isn't. I got the impression that it is. I have these internal alarm bells that start ringing whenever someone is trying to bullshit or con me. And they were definately triggered by listening to Burge. But I dunno. Perhaps it works for some. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I just don't get why he would wanna waste people time and money like this just to make a few bucks. It's not that hard to make money without being a total scumbag like this. And usually when people do scams they tend to stay "hidden". They don't make themselves publically known in association with their scam.
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I know a musician who runs the jazz department at a university near me and the question of perfect pitch once popped up. He said that both he and his wife (a vocalist) weren't born with perfect pitch but they both managed to develop it, both of them being professional musicians (I trust him). I don't know exactly how they did it, I think he may have mentioned a program but I don't actually remember, but I do know he's had a lot of exposure to music and I assume he developed it from that over time.
I'm just a student, not born with perfect pitch, but I feel like I'm heading in this direction, slowly but steadily I'm beginning to hear things in my head, definite pitches of songs or lines I know. From there if I know what the notes are from having played the song or line before, I can isolate a single pitch in my head and know "that's a Bb" or "that's a G". It's not perfect and it's not reliable but I'm definitely getting better. It's either spot on or I completely lose it. If I don't have exposure listening to music enough then I lose the ability.
I also have moments where I hear a note and it sparks a memory of another song that I happen to know what the key is. One example is I was iTunes was on shuffle, I was skipping through songs, on one of them all I heard was one note from the bass and I immediately knew "Bb" because I heard the beginning of Oleo in that one note. I checked and yes, it was a Bb.
I don't know if this will develop into fully perfect pitch but it's definitely getting better, so I don't believe it's impossible for a mere mortal non perfect pitch human being can develop it, or at least something closely resembling it. I'd almost bet that if everybody set their alarm clocks to play a really loud annoying pitch that was a perfect C every morning, after long enough (might even be years) they'd be able to recognize a C anywhere from listening to their alarm clock daily. Somebody should try this.
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To those who might think they have been born with, or achieved perfect pitch . . as opposed to relatively frequent accuracy in recognizing certain notes . . . I would suggest this as a self challenge to your claims;;
See if you can get together with 2 sax players, an alto and a tenor. Have the sax players purposely "de-tune" their sax. Then, go into a secluded room with the alto player, no tuning device, and instruct him on finding the perfect B flat. Then, have him sit outside that secluded room, while you repeat the process with the tenor to find the perfect C tuning. The sax players should have NO influence on your determination of when their instrument has achieve accurate tuning. Then do a string change on your guitar . . . not just a de-tuning and a re-tuning . . but a string change . . no tuning device. When all is complete and you are satisfied that each instrument is in tune, then and ONLY then, should the instruments be played in the company of each other instrument. Then, play a tune or 2 with all three instruments included. NO TUNING during the tune!! Record it. Play it back and listen to it. Should be very interesting when you hear the results.
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If you think of a well known song now
say your national anthem or a beatles tune or something
then check it out its usually correct innit ?
Is this pitch memory or perfect pitch ?
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OMG! Originally Posted by pingu
I just tried this out with one of the tunes I know best: Scofield's "Since you asked" which is in C minor.
And what happened? I sang a PERFECT C!!! I haven't even touched my guitar today (or most of the week because it has been at the luthiers) nor have I heard any music today.
It ISN'T perfect pitch though more like "pitch memory" as you say I guess. AS I understand people with perfect pitch recognize the different pitches because of their different qualities. Like recognizing colors. There is no effort in distinguishing blue from red. It's simply obvious. Nor is memorizing necessary (allthough one could argue that at some point in our childhood we DO memorize the different colors).
Ah and also an interesting idea with the alarm clock there, Sammie
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Coincidentally, many of those who have perfect pitch are asians. Many have presumed it is because the language is more melodic, and that the same word can have multiple meanings depending on the melody in which it is delivered. So they probably are more prone to pay attention to pitch when learning language, and this carries over to music. Originally Posted by fep
Personally, I can't see much use for perfect pitch as a performing musician. If you know what sound comes out before you play, that's really all you need. It's useful to hear if you're perfectly in tune, but guitarists will never be perfectly in tune anyway because of the nature of the instruments.
Especially for jazz musicians, relative pitch is much more useful in a practical sense.
I can see it being a tremendeous skill to have for horn players though, especially soprano sax players, as those instruments are almost impossible to play in tune. Technique is one thing, but if you can hear the perfect pitch in your ear before you play, you know where you're going.
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Hmm... I'm wondering now are you guys able to sing a perfect pitch by using a song you know well as refference? I'd like to know whether it's a common thing or whether I'm SPECIAL
Haha just kidding. Well about the special thing. I would like to know if you can do it too. I was very surprised to say the least that I could do it. I tried it several times today and every time I get it right.
And I don't think that having perfect pitch is useless at all. Being able to recognize / sing any note instantly and knowing your fretboard really well seems like a truly powerful combination. And I can't help thinking that having perfect pitch would seriously facilitate your eartraining in general, but I dunno...Last edited by aniss1001; 02-11-2012 at 04:30 PM.
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i don't think its that unusual if you're into musicOMG! I just tried this out with one of the tunes I know best: Scofield's "Since you asked" which is in C minor.
And what happened? I sang a PERFECT C!!! I haven't even touched my guitar today (or most of the week because it has been at the luthiers) nor have I heard any music today.
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That is very posible no doubt. Just wondering: can you do it if you try right now?? Originally Posted by pingu
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I just tried it for Autumn leaves, I sang it in Gm instead of Em. I usually play it in Em.
So, I can't do it.
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Everybody, I'm devising a plan. For the next week or two I'm going to set about 5 minutes a day a few times a day I'm going to do nothing but sit, play a Bb, close my eyes and listen, focus everything on that one note. I'm thinking that after long enough, I'll say two weeks as an example although it could be 2 months or years, the note will stick in my mind permanently. This is just a thought but I think everybody can hear pitches, we just need to put names to certain ones, and I think that this should help. If after two weeks that Bb has stuck in my mind which I hope it will then there's 11 more to go before I have perfect pitch... in theory. If it takes two weeks a note then that's 24 weeks for all the chromatic notes, that's about 6 months? If it doesn't work for Bb in about a month I'm going to give up and agree it's impossible, but I think it will. I might be completely wrong but I'll try it anyway and get back to you if it works. Somebody else should try this as an experiment as well.
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I don't think there is any such thing as perfect pitch. If you think about it for a moment I think you will agree.
The note names we associate with frequencies were only standardized internationally back in the 1930s with A=440Hz. Prior to that, concert pitch A was assigned in various places at various times to a whole range of pitches covering about a half octave.
Therefore, what someone called "A" at one time other people have called F#, or Bb, and even "in between" micro-tonal notes because of the variations in the reference concert pitch.
So the whole idea that the notes are absolute and just waiting to be named by someone with perfect pitch is wrong.
Notes, no matter what might be the concert pitch, have interval relations, half step sizes, whole step sizes, etc. But like above, these are not absolute. Through history there have been about 20 popular temperaments, and about 130 more obscure ones.
So in order for someone to demonstrate perfect pitch, that would mean that their note identification must be applicable to at least one of these temperaments... which one(s)? Pythagorean (Just), Meantone, Well (Irregular), or the modern Standard European 1/12 Diatonic Comma Equal Temperament?
Hint: If you have to be born with perfect pitch (genetic), then you don't get to choose the specific temperament of your gift, do you? How likely is it that the one you acquired is the one in current popular use?
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right on ......... Originally Posted by pauln
Thats why I was talking about pitch memory
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It probably wont work just remembering Autumn Leaves
too many versions in various keys around
You have to think of a well known version (definitive even) to you
eg I was brought up on the Beatles so if think of an old Beats tune
I hear a bit of it in my head , sing it then check with utube
it usually comes good
I believe the perfect pitch people are doing this with piano keys
(in equal temperment probably)
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Sure the standard for naming notes hasn't remained constant, but it's standardized now. The fact that an "A" may have been "Ab" 200 years ago doesn't change the fact that certain people can distinguish between 12 different tones regardless of the degree to which they're "out of tune". Originally Posted by pauln
Perfect pitch is verifiable science and isn't really questioned. We're talking about whether one can acquire it. If I could distinctly hear the 12 different tones every time, I would be ecstatic. I wouldn't really care if someone else named a pitch "Ab" or "Harry" for that matter.
When I was in college, there was a girl in my first theory class with perfect pitch. She could identify any pitch and sing any pitch. The irritating thing was that she had vocal production issues and couldn't even sing in tune. That just seems unfair.
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Without a tuner at hand, after a re-string I hear in my head the final piano chord of A Day In The Life to get the E. Originally Posted by pingu
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