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The first thing I do on guitar every day is sight read tunes from real books and fake books... I just start at the begining and work my way thru.
Let me repeat, every day... it's the best thing I've done for my sight reading.
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05-12-2011 01:35 PM
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Lots of guitarists can't sight read, or not well. Yes, making mistakes when you're starting out is probably normal, and frustrating when you're used to playing "better" by ear or on music you know. Just keep at it, and you'll get better. Read tunes you know, read tunes you don't know, and keep your eyes on the music.
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One important thing I've been taught is to not practice mistakes. Make sure when you're going through it and mess up, you don't go to the beginning of the tune and then mess up 8 more times at the same spot. What you're doing is essentially practicing your mistakes and therefore make them time after time. You want to stop where you made the error and just go over that bar slowly and precisely until you get it down without error. Questlove of the Roots said scientifically its been calculated that it takes 13 consecutive times played without error to commit something to memory. He's a hardcore practice freak. How true that is I don't know. Give it a shot.
Originally Posted by CarolM
Anyway, this morning I had to play Greensleeves @ 70 bpm I think 8 times to get through it without screwing up. It's all first-position stuff, and just quarter notes. I am trying not to look at my hands b/c I lose my place in the music. I am using a metronome. It's just unreal how I can keep messing up, suddenly "forgetting" about open string notes like B and going for the next fretted note, or reaching too far for the A or E..sheesh...
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Originally Posted by whatswisdom
Yeah. "Melodic Rhythms" helped my reading more than any other source, and it helps toward mastering the fingerboard - a huge quest! Leavitt was a visionary -- a superb teacher of the guitar. Each "Study" in "Melodic Rhythms" does so much, but each clearly teaches the student a new and cool rhythmic figure, or "motif." These little gems can only make your improvisations more varied and creative and interesting.
For example, the attachment, "Study #40d" -- obviously this one is designed to familiarize the student with quarter-note triplets AND some cool things that can be done with them by subdividing and omitting, etc. This one helped me a lot. Great book - thanks for mentioning it.Last edited by Kojo27; 05-13-2011 at 03:59 AM.
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I asked the same question to my guitar teacher. this is was he told me:
"
Sight reading is a combination of lots of skills :
Rythm reading
Notes reading
Knowing where the notes are on the fretboard
Mixing your fingers together so the fingering is doable on the guitar.
Make music out of it
"
In my opinion, each one of these things has to be mastered in order to 'sight-read'
it's another one of these 'i want to learn something very complicated, i try to do it all together, don't succeed, and feel stupid' thing.
Your brain will not learn anything if you try to learn all of these things altogether.
My teacher suggested this:
First learn to read rythm:
open the real book, no guitar, take the first bar, clap the rythm in your hands. STAY ON THE FIRST BAR UNTIL THE RYTHM has sunk into you, you should find a 'yeah! that's cool' vibe, sing it, etc.
move on to second bar, same story
clap bar 1 and 2 together
move on to bar 3, then 4, then 3 and 4, then 1 2 3 and 4, etc etc..
do this for one month, then you'll notice your rythm reading ability has improved dramatically
then move on to notes:
now you can read the rythm so, still no guitar, say (or sing if you can, but i can't) the note names, in rythm. First, only bar 1, loop on it until it's cool. then bar 2, then bar 1 and 2, etc etc
do this for one month
(at this point my fingers were moving on an imaginary fretboard when i was reading, putting themselves on the guitar already)
then you might move on to the other stuff.
It may sound slow, but i find it better to actually learn something in a month than spend one month not learning anything, and then feel bad
I found this 'breaking-down-hard-to-do-things' in simpler things really works when you want to learn anything.
Children learn that way, adults always say they learn less easily than children, then they should use this method even more! (or maybe adults say they can't learn because they are too proud to start easy and build things up slowly, that's what i believe
)
hope that helps
EDIT:
now that i think of it, my teacher also makes me WRITE down all the exercices in notation.
This (not surprisingly) really improved my reading skills.
Plus when you write something you have an intellectual game (i'll try to play this arpeggio this way, instead of this other way) and you discover possibilities hidden by the fretboard.
I can't advise enough to start writing every exercise down. and it teaches you to read
Last edited by add4; 05-13-2011 at 04:45 AM. Reason: I post, then i reread and change details, that's how i work :)
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Originally Posted by JNGuitar
But you don't mean memorizing the tune w/o music, right? Up to know I've always memorized everything. Now I'm trying to keep my eyes glued to the music, though that leaves me weirdly helpless if I lose my place, like my friend who can only play from music and can't just comp or improvise.
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I am just a beginner but I have had a teacher try to teach me reading. Originally Posted by CarolM
Reading and memorising are two different things. When you are reading, you have to read. That means eyes on the page. It is murder doing this in front of a teacher. One mistake and you are gone; no recovery; it is humiliating. To be able to do it, you have to be very relaxed and focussed and that is hard in front of someone else. I completely sypmathise with how it felt to you. I used to practice the hell out of lumps of Bach and have it off pat (so I thought; haha) only to completely screw up as soon as I tried to do it with a teacher. What you described is normal.
These days, I just content myself with being able to read off-line and use charts that I try to memorise for later. Doing it in real time takes youth (not got that any more) and constant practice. To be honest, I simply do not put time into it now. At at a guess, to be able to do it well, I would have to do it every day without fail for say 20-30 mins (maybe 2 or 3, 10 min doses) and it would take months to show real improvement. I am 51 and only started reading 5 years ago.
Des
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I'm never one to push stuff on people, but make no mistake, Melodic Rhythms (in conjuction with the Reading Studies Vols) will solve your reading problems if you apply yourself. The books are meant to be used together. Originally Posted by Kojo27
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Great post, dude! Totally with you on the Real Book rhythm exercise. Some neat ideas there that I can use with my students. (Check out my previous post regarding the Berklee Melodic Rhythms book. I used to go through it with nothing but metromone/hands + feet.) Originally Posted by add4
I asked the same question to my guitar teacher. this is was he told me:
"
Sight reading is a combination of lots of skills :
Rythm reading
Notes reading
Knowing where the notes are on the fretboard
Mixing your fingers together so the fingering is doable on the guitar.
Make music out of it
"
In my opinion, each one of these things has to be mastered in order to 'sight-read'
it's another one of these 'i want to learn something very complicated, i try to do it all together, don't succeed, and feel stupid' thing.
Your brain will not learn anything if you try to learn all of these things altogether.
My teacher suggested this:
First learn to read rythm:
open the real book, no guitar, take the first bar, clap the rythm in your hands. STAY ON THE FIRST BAR UNTIL THE RYTHM has sunk into you, you should find a 'yeah! that's cool' vibe, sing it, etc.
move on to second bar, same story
clap bar 1 and 2 together
move on to bar 3, then 4, then 3 and 4, then 1 2 3 and 4, etc etc..
do this for one month, then you'll notice your rythm reading ability has improved dramatically
then move on to notes:
now you can read the rythm so, still no guitar, say (or sing if you can, but i can't) the note names, in rythm. First, only bar 1, loop on it until it's cool. then bar 2, then bar 1 and 2, etc etc
do this for one month
(at this point my fingers were moving on an imaginary fretboard when i was reading, putting themselves on the guitar already)
then you might move on to the other stuff.
It may sound slow, but i find it better to actually learn something in a month than spend one month not learning anything, and then feel bad
I found this 'breaking-down-hard-to-do-things' in simpler things really works when you want to learn anything.
Children learn that way, adults always say they learn less easily than children, then they should use this method even more! (or maybe adults say they can't learn because they are too proud to start easy and build things up slowly, that's what i believe )
hope that helps
EDIT:
now that i think of it, my teacher also makes me WRITE down all the exercices in notation.
This (not surprisingly) really improved my reading skills.
Plus when you write something you have an intellectual game (i'll try to play this arpeggio this way, instead of this other way) and you discover possibilities hidden by the fretboard.
I can't advise enough to start writing every exercise down. and it teaches you to read
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The reason you are frustrated is because you are in a hurry.
It took you many years to become a fluent reader of books. Is there any reason to expect it would not take you many years to fluently read music?
Most musicians start learning to read music in elementary school in the school band. Then they continue in the high school band. And on.
Not overnight or in a couple months.
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Perhaps I'm being simple in suggesting this but it seems from your prior comments that the fingering is more of an issue ( knowing where the notes are ) When I was taught to sight read the first thing you need to do is see what key you're in and than look at the whole piece to see what the range of the notes are so you can limit where your left hand will be during the piece. So for example if the piece is going from B below middle C up 2 octaves to D but is in the key of C you can handle this around the 8th fret with the C major scale.Then look for the accidentals and then the larger interval jumps that may give you fingering problems. You would need to know the C major scale here but in doing so you can adjust for the accidentals. In knowing the interval jumps you have an idea if a string change is coming. The rhythms have already been discussed above but to sight read I think you need a framework to start from for the fretboard and this means knowing the key you're in and the scale to apply to it. As pieces advance there will be key changes that you'll need to adjust to but knowing how to hang in one key to start with is necessary. Sorry if I'm repeating the obvious with all of this. Keep plugging away!
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Here's something I posted on a counting rhythms thread...
"Sorry to keep bringing this point up... but it's a door that most guitarist never get through...usually because they don't know there is a door... sorry to use metaphor, but for some reason most don't understand.
We have for the most part been talking about learning rhythms, how to count them out... Not sight reading. This is a basic and beginning step... in the process of learning to read music. There is huge difference between learning or memorizing music and being able to sight read. Learning to recognize rhythmic patterns is very similar to listening to music and trying to memorize the part... This process is not teaching you to be able to sight read... it's teaching you to memorize what ever your looking at. It's teaching you not to sight read. I know one must go through the process of learning to recognize or feel rhythms... but you should be aware... that's what your doing, learning or memorizing... not learning to sight read.
Back to the counting mechanics... as fast as you can... quite counting and feel... all beats or sub-divisions of the beat are either a down beat or an up beat. The feel of up beats are either an anticipation of a beat or attack, as in + 1 or + 3 .... or a.. + of a down beat as in 1+ or 3+. There are more but if you can feel those basic rhythms or accents, you can begin to quite the counting. This process can also be related to improvising... another discussion..."
The point I am trying to make is most Guitarist and some guitar teachers aren't aware of the difference... and for some reason can't seem to... as I said open that door. It doesn't matter if you recognize the rhythmic or melodic patterns... when your sight reading time keeps moving... The human mind wants to interpret continuous time general as succession of durations, generally either strong - weak or weak - strong. You need to feel or at least be aware that, internally, some think or feel two, four or eight bar phrases of time, some feel forms, which is constructed of grouping of bars of music... what I'm getting at is you don't have to feel every beat or subdivision of... that's to much work... somewhat like getting caught up in the trees of the forest.
At some point your going to be able to hear what the music on the page sounds like before you play it, and your going to be able to be sight reading the music ahead of what your playing... It's not that hard... but you need to practice sight reading... not the technique of memorizing music... If I'm not making my point or doesn't make sense... please ask any questions... Thanks Reg
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You have to play the right notes in time. The only way to get better is to work on it. I played piano since I was 5, so the notation and rhythm thing comes natural.
I still struggle with guitar reading, although I have got better, by practicing it. I also found that when your reading you try and stick to playing in position(s) when possible, as opposed to jumping up and down the neck, it is a little easier. I know where the notes are under my fingers and on what string. I also started playing classical guitar etudes, and that helped a lot too.
Still a long way to go though...although I feel a lot more comfortable reading pieces at rehearsals...I can keep up, maybe make a couple of mistakes, but usually get the picture after one or two read throughs, depending on the difficulty of the piece. Some stuff though, I think you have to be a real talent to read, like some of the fusion or contemporary jazz stuff that people write that has insanely weird melodies that jump all over the place and are quick as hell...I just shed those. No shame in fitting the cliche that guitarists can't read every now and again...
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reg...all you say is very important to the process of sight reading...not reading music but sight reading...a very difficult process..howard roberts had a sight reading book out that stressed what your saying..he showed some short cuts and the goal of reading at least two bars ahead which sounds like voo-doo to anyone just beginning..
one other main ingredient in sight reading is confidence this is a tricky one because the music may well be in your reach but your not sure yu can play it for whatever reason..dealing with this issue is beyond this post..but for now lets say your playing a piece and you miss a note..now another technique comes into play..that takes alot of practice..recovery in time not missing a beat.(though i have missed a bar or two from time to time) but if you know how to recover and get back without a nervous breakdown..sight reading can actually be fun...
one big tip for all levels of readers...dont put pressure on your self to be perfect..you will miss notes...and you know what...the world wont end..and it does not take away your ability in any way..i have seen some very good session guys miss a bar and you would never know it because they didn't tell anyone...this confidence issue is always with us for some reason..and most of the time it is self imposed..so part of the sight reading process is not to beat your self up if you miss notes..
play well
wolf
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Originally Posted by whatswisdom
I learned sight-reading much the same way. The main thing for real SIGHT reading is never to pick something that looks challenging just to feel great! Never stop or pause to correct some mistakes. This is one of the few things that my first private guitar teacher got right I think. Here's a video that I accidentally ran into a while ago that really explains the distinction that Reg and others are talking about.
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there are some free online sight reading programs some of which have rhythm exercises, which tell you when you make a mistake, (ding, etc)
and also full reading exercises.
here's one, that I thought was good:
teoría - Music Theory Web
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Great points Wolf... thanks, and great Video franco... there it is.
And back to Wolf's comment about mistakes... it's much more important to stay in time as compared to the actual notes. At least in most situation, if I'm in recording session, OK everything needs to be perfect... but how much of your playing is in the studio. I'll check out the sight mark posted, looks cool.... Reg
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Sorry if it was already mentioned, but IMO, the most beneficial thing that I learned at school was sight singing. They had us doing it in every class, from theory to yes, even history.
I found I eventually got to the point where I could just look at the music and hear it.
Cheers, Ron
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Greensleeves is just an exercise in both the Leonard and Mel Bay books..just where I happened to be at the time of posting. It was easy at first, but the more I played the worse it got. Just weird lapses like confusing C with A, because they're both spaces, or B with D, or skipping open strings because the fingers want to fret. Plus I need to be pretty fresh so late in the day does not work well...lol. Originally Posted by Kojo27
About ready to order the Leavitt book...thanks.
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Boy, thats helped me a bunch too. When you get bored maybe start transcribing songs you already know Carol. Originally Posted by djangoles
Last edited by Flatwound12; 06-18-2011 at 05:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by CarolM
Good for you! By the way, I just read that one of Berklee's guitar instructors has recorded four (4) CDs to accompany the 3 books. I haven't seen them available yet, but they're supposedly coming.
If you haven't already ordered, you might want to get Vol. One with the great DVD (many hours of one-on-one there!) -- and hold out a while to see if they start selling the CD versions by the time you're ready for volume 2.
Also important: remember that Leavitt did NOT want students to master every lesson before going on. Just get the basic concept and plow forth. But always, ALWAYS be reviewing, going back and re-reading the stuff you sped through. Review is the way to mastery in learning. Leavitt knew this. But there's no point in holding yourself back while its happening.
You should get through Volume 1 in three or four months. You'll still have things to review, maybe for many more months, but don't stop -- go on to Volume 2 and burn through it the same way. But review, review, review.
KJ
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In which order would you recommend studying the Leavitt books ie. 'modern method', 'melodic rhythms' and 'reading studies'? and secondly, I've been drilling the Jimmy Bruno five finger patterns, in which case should these override any fingerings suggested in the aforementioned publications?
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Use whatever fingerings work for you. I learned my fingerings from the Aaron Shearer method books (classical) but I've also incorporated some fingerings based on my learning from this great guitar forum. Originally Posted by Stu Foley
Here's a great exercise: Start in the first position and play the major scale in all twelve keys without leaving the position. Play in the following order: F; Bb; Eb; Ab; Db/C#; Gb/F#; Cb/B; E; A; D; G; C.
In the corrosponding order, here are the starting points (finger/string) for the root note of each major scale: 1 on 6; 1 on 5; 1 on 4; 4 on 6; 4 on 5; 2 on 6; 2 on 5; Open 6; 4 on 6; 4 on 5; 2 on 5.
If you can master this you can move to any other position and do the same thing. Pretty cool in that you can play in any key you want from any position.
Sight reading is best practised regularly, starting as slow as you need and moving to faster tempos only when you can play at slower tempos without error. Metronome? Absolutely! Especially when working from the Melodic Rhythms and Sight Reading books. Both Melodic Rhythms and Sight Reading should be studied concurrently to get the full benefit of Leavitt's instruction.Last edited by whatswisdom; 06-19-2011 at 10:02 PM.
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Just to say, it seems to me the scale fingerings in Leavitt's books make sight reading much easier than do some others (Segovia's, and to a lesser extent, Bruno's), which call for shifting positions. Some players (Bruno for one) disapprove of Leavitt's way, because of all the "stretches." But all a "stretch" means is that you'll now and then need to reach for a note that is one fret outside the "four-fingers/four frets" concept of "position." It seems to me this way of getting to the notes you need, without oftentimes CRAZY shifting back and forth of the whole hand, is very efficient when sight reading. The "stretches" become second nature, and it's easy to visualize the fingerboard this way without having to look at it.
Joshua Breakstone's book, "Etudes for Jazz Guitar" (or something close to that) is a superb collection of pieces designed primarily to teach sight reading with plenty stuff idiomatic to jazz guitar -- fairly easy (intermediate, I guess.) The fingerings he uses are Leavitt's, more or less, but he does a great thing: he doesn't refer to "stretches" as "stretches." When you have to reach outside the four-fret zone for a scale degree, he says you merely "open up your hand" and then back! Sounds so much easier, aye? And it shouldn't be hard just to reach down with your first finger or reach up with your pinky, ONE FRET, then back to four-fret land. Makes reading much easier, imo.
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I found a great site that is helping me greatly with my reading. Check it out.
sightreading Table
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