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Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
It helps if you want gigs where you have to play unknown material on short notice. That's a big thing. But one can be a good jazz guitarist without being a good sight-reader. (Again, I'm not *against* being a good sight reader.)
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03-27-2011 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Put me down as PRO reading. I work on at least one new tune a week, usually from the Real Book. I wish I were a faster reader.
But I think it's a *myth* that everyone who works in a studio is a SUPER reader. The better you are the better it is (---hhmm, that sounds like a song title) but how many of us here are even looking toward a future of studio work (-as a session player, handling whoever is booked for session number next)?
If that's your goal, work on your reading, sure. Work on it anyway, but let's not pretend that everyone who makes a living as a session player is a great reader. What makes a great session guitarist is being a versatile *player*.
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Tablature has its place, is my opinion. As does sheet music.
As stated earlier, I think tab is best used to sketch out technical exercises and chord voices so you can work on them quickly and easily- but writing them out in sheet music is also useful, too.
Tablature has a rather long history- it was used as the lingua franca for lute players and was modified for use for guitarists- the only reason I prefer standard notation is that it is, as said, standard. I can pick up a piece for flute and start jamming (or could, if I could read better!). If I just use tab, I can't do that.
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Originally Posted by czardas
I've heard that there are a handful of guitarists, maybe 5 to 10, that get 90% of the work in Hollywood and make a very good living doing it. Then there might be thousands of guitarists available for that other 10% and they can't make a living by only being studio musicians.
The reason those guitarists get all the work is they don't make mistakes and they get it right on the first take. If you're working on a soundtrack and the producer has a whole orchestra hired, plus engineers, and a studio... just think how much a mistake can cost that producer. Make too many mistakes and that producer will never hire you again. It's amazing how well those musicians sight read.
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Originally Posted by fep
I have two friends who are great jazz players, both can read very well. The one who gets all the studio work can play all other genres convincingly and has a full arsenal of effects that he puts to great use so he can give producers exactly what they are looking for. The other is a straight ahead, arch top, bebop guy.
Note my signature; I guess for HIM it wasn't hard. I also think his studio work was done in an era where you don't have to be so effects oriented.
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There's a great anecdote on Dean Brown's instructional DVD where he recounts auditioning for Billy Cobham. Cobham put this really complex piece of music in front of him for his first tune! He said he got through it but could tell Cobham was not impressed. Than they jammed on a standard shuffle groove and he won him over and landed the gig!
I think it's a fantasy to think that in today's world, you'll get past the audition process at that level without being able to read the music that the composer puts in front of you. Nobody at that level is going to hand you tab that's for sure. As Dean's story proves though, if you've got the feel they're looking for you'll get a chance to smooth out the bumps before the next rehearsal!
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There's nothing wrong with using tabs if that's what you want (particularly if you're a recreational player) and you don't have to read a note to be a good jazz player - jazz is all about using your ears.
HOWEVER, the flip side of this is that TAB is *for* guitar players and it does something musical notation doesn't: tells you *which* C note to hit.
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Originally Posted by fep
Last edited by czardas; 03-28-2011 at 03:20 AM.
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In most cases tabulature does not show time values. It also says nothing about tonality, accidentials, etc. You cannot communicate tabs to musicians playing other instruments.
I can read, but have used tabs alot before learning to read. Today it's still hard for me to concentrate on the standard notation when there's also a tab underneath. I've really thought about blackening all tabs...
Cheers, Modalguru
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Originally Posted by Modalguru
Books such as the William Leavitt Methods are really to be used with a teacher and are are less suited for a beginner learning alone. I would not recommend using them to start. Once you have found a good book, without going beyond reading one or two pages, each set of exercises should be repeated for several days until you can read through the music with just the occasional mistake. Then it's time to turn the page and work through the rest of the book in a similar fashion.
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Originally Posted by czardas
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When I say books that focus on sight reading, I really mean methods that include reading exercises - that is a set of progressive exercises with one purpose in mind, ie to develop reading fluency. While it is not essential to be able to sight read music to play well, I think that many guitar methods fail to adequately address this skill, and tend to focus mainly on music written for performance instead.
Last edited by czardas; 03-28-2011 at 04:38 AM.
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Originally Posted by SwingSwangSwung
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TAB is like marijuana: It should be allowed, but only for one's personal use.
Really, TAB can be good to show a specific passage & how it is phrased, but the drawback in that it only displays that one passage. It's like those old "shape-notes". Very helpful, but you wouldn't want to be using the stuff as a mature musician.
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Sometimes, when I transcribe solos, I might tab out long phrases if they sound better played in specific strings and frets. But, when I learn melodies or write, if it's something that sounds very good, I just write what position I'm in or something in the lead sheet.
Most of the times I don't bother...Last edited by EinarG; 03-28-2011 at 02:14 PM.
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One of the best reasons to learn to read is that it opens up a wealth of music for other instruments that can be played on the guitar. Piano books, Violin, Clarinet, etc etc.
I worked out 3 Bill Evans arrangements from his piano scores. Of course I had to redo some voicings, but not as many as you would think. They are all chord melodies.
I've also worked out 2 Chopin pieces for guitar based off of the original Piano score.
The other books I've used are Bach Sonatas and Partitas for Violin. Looking for arpeggio studies, then that's the book for you.
To me TAB is actually more confusing. It's just a bunch of numbers. Looking at notes you can actually see the direction the music is taking. Scales look like scales. Arpeggios appear on the lines or spaces in order. I can look at a piece of music before playing it and get an idea of what's going on. Fret numbers don't do that for me. Understanding what you're about to read/play is half the battle
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In my opinion, it is easier to show positions and fingerings on standard notation than it is to show time durations on tab.
When the music is complex, neither one will save you.
One of my guitar teacher friends does not allow any tab in his studio. I think that is the right approach for a teacher. Students will seek out tab if they want it, but for at least that one hour a week they are reading notes.
I'm not a great real-time reader, but I prefer notation to tab. Looking at notes I can figure out where to put my fingers faster than counting up which fret on what string.
It becomes sort of automatic. You see the note, you know the note, your finger lands on the nearest logical place to play that note within the context of where you are and where you are going. In other words, if the note can be played in the position you are already in, then that might be the best way to play it. Otherwise you can mark up your score the way you want it.Last edited by kenbennett; 03-28-2011 at 05:09 PM. Reason: spelling
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When I've notated music to share on this site I usually include two staves, standard notation and tab. I do that so everyone can read the example. It's just a matter of communication.
I don't have anything against tab but for my own purposes I only use standard notation.
Once you get used to standard notation, it's easier to read than tab... imo.
In standard notation you can read groups of notes. For instance, you see 4 notes going up the scale starting on B with a key signature of G... that's B, C, D, E right up the scale. Or you see another group of 4 notes all on the lines starting on G... G, B, D, F# easily recognized as an arpeggio. So you're not reading individual notes, your reading groups of notes. Kind of like reading words as opposed to letters.
Reading in groups of notes like this is something I can do in standard notation but not in tab.
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It's no doubt that tab is easier to use, and more intuitive than standard notation... but it really is a waste of time to learn it. No one is "great" at reading tab right away - they develop the skill set through practice. I don't habitually read tab anymore, but whenever I do I can read it very quickly because I used tab frequently during the first 6 years that I played guitar. If, during that whole time, I had been struggling through sheet music instead of reading tab, I would be a much better sight reader than I am now. Just realize that, if you read tab frequently, or if you write out your music into tab form frequently, you are spending time doing it - time that would be better spent practicing sight reading.
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Originally Posted by kenbennett
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Remember when you were a kid, and you couldn't read a language yet, and you had to look at books with pictures? You couldn't write, so you took out your crayons and drew pictures to tell a story. Then you learned to read and write, and suddenly the world of communication was open to you. That's the difference between tab and notation.
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I learned to read music on the guitar the way I learned to read on the saxophone, and long before I knew that there was such a thing as a chord grid. I think that if you have any aspiration to be a real player, especially in jazz or classical, you need to learn to read notation.
That being said, I think tab has its place. Waiting until you can read music well enough to read “Iron Man” or “Dust in the Wind” seems silly. So, for me it’s a style/reading ability issue. As a guitar instructor, I guess you would call me a “TAB whore”. :-)
“Stairway to Heaven” to kids who haven’t learned flats and sharps yet? Yep. You wanna learn The White Stripes’ “Hey There Delilah”?. “Well, Johnny, first we’re going to have to learn to read notation in 2nd position and introduce sharp key signatures, and you’re not even reading on the 5th string yet”. I don’t think so. I pay the family bills by getting people to pay for the next set of lessons.
I’m in a market where most of my students, at least to start, are young beginners who aren’t as serious as I am about music. And why should they be? If you’re a good teacher or player, shouldn’t you be more “into it” than those you teach? If you’re lucky enough to be in a market where you can only take advanced students or the highly motivated, sending the “mortals” on to some other teacher, that’s great, but I take a lot of pride in being able to teach anyone. I also take pride and enjoy teaching students who couldn’t learn from some other teacher.
Originally Posted by max_power
I think the guitar is much harder to read music on than these other instruments. I’ve read music on guitar for over 25 years, although not on the entire fretboard. I also played sax in school and picked up piano in college, about 20 years ago. I’m not a great pianist, but I still find that it’s less confusing to read piano music. Guitar is an always has been my main instrument, and I've put many more hours into it. I think the problems with reading on the guitar have to do with the unique characteristics of the instrument itself.
Regardless of the octave, the amount of polyphony or the uniformity of the keyboard layout, the piano keyboard just makes sense. Middle C is in one place. On the guitar it’s in 5 (concert pitch). There may be 5 repetitions of the same pitch on the violin, but I don’t think so.
However, the most confounding thing about the guitar is that each key/chord/scale feels exactly the same as its counterpart one half step higher or lower. On the saxophone or piano, there is a kinesthetic identity for each particular key you play in. Db “feels like” Db. On the guitar, the opposite is true. Kinesthetically, Db feels exactly like C or B. It even feels exactly the same starting from the 5th string. Until you get to the B string… Oh, crap! There’s that too!
I’ve goofed off a little on the violin and don’t think that it has the same reading problems, although it’s a much harder instrument to learn to play. I’d liken the fretless issue to that of embouchure or other technical considerations, of which the guitar has its own. The violin has a much steeper learning curve than many other instruments in this regard, but it’s a technical issue, not a reading issue. However long it takes, once you know Db on the violin, it’s automatic. You feel it in a way that’s much more natural than on the guitar.
With the guitar, you have to consciously remind yourself to think about pitch, because if you have any kind of ear, knowledge of theory, or experience in playing, your fingers tend to “take over” when you get to a familiar pattern up the neck. The guitar requires unique criteria in sight reading material. The material must be random enough, almost to the point of being unmusical, to keep the reader from being distracted by patterns. I don’t see this as an issue with sax, piano or violin music.
Maybe others are different, but I just see the pitch and play it on those instruments. Learning to recognize patterns at sight and play them as pitch groups is a plus on other instruments. It's a positive benefit of higher level study. Until you learn the guitar fretboard pretty thoroughly, you kind of have to surpress this in guitar reading; more micro than macro. Then, later, allow the macro back in.
As a jazz player, you also have to be able to scan ahead in the music to make decisions about position based on what’s coming next, and decide how to revoice chords which are impossible to play on the guitar.
Originally Posted by max_power
I think reading skill is essential, but there’s a reason why those lutists used tab. They weren’t playing “Smoke on the Water” either. (Hey, what’s wrong with “Smoke on the Water”?) ;-) As a teacher, "Smoke on the Water" has a lot more motivating power than "Modal 3-Note Song You've Never Heard Before Because It's not Real Music/Learning to Sight-Read Song".
I say teach both!Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-29-2011 at 09:07 AM.
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Yeas, as a guitar teacher, I have to use tab--gotta keep folks interested and keep them playing and remember that for many, it's just for fun.
When a student expresses interest in jazz though, I give it to them straight (no chaser)--there's some things they're going to HAVE to be able to do, no excuses...reading is one of them.
And when they counter with "Wes couldn't read," (or whoever)I quietly remind them that when they can play like Wes, they get their pass.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Nice post Matt, you brought up some great points. I still disagree about sight reading on the guitar being particularly more difficult than on other instruments...I firmly believe that, if sight reading were a standard practice among guitarists, they wouldn't complain that it's so much harder to do on the guitar.
Nothing's wrong with Smoke On The Water, I was just illustrating a point. For almost any instrument other than the guitar - piano, sax, trumpet, violin, flugelhorn, oboe, you name it - every note you learn to play is learned off of sheet music. For a while, almost everything you play is something you're sight reading. It makes for a slower start, but results in a more thorough knowledge of the instrument.
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