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That reading is unconnected to musical ability? Obviously.
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04-11-2023 07:58 AM
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I don't know such professionals.Read well and play badly...?
Originally Posted by blackcat
are they jazz musicians?
I know pretty good players and bad readers.
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I don't read notes as much as an orchestral musician who specializes in that. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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These are good questions for any tablature proponent to answer if they are sincere about their contributions to this thread. I think we can safely establish at this point that Litterick and blackcat are beginners who are trolling the jazz forum. They seem to be more interested in personal questions about Christian or the OP than to provide any substance to the discussion. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Perhaps the confusion is the thread title. It should've been "How frown upon is using guitar tablature by those jazz musicians who are serious about their musical development?".Last edited by Tal_175; 04-11-2023 at 09:27 AM.
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That's the way it is on this forum...discussions with strangers.
This is the internet-unfortunately.
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Love it or hate it, tab is here to stay.
We need a new topic, lol.
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To be fair, tablature has been around in some form since the Middle Ages... so yeah. It has been here to stay for hundreds of years. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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New Topic: Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
"Learning jazz improvisation without using tablature."
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Who knows maybe in 20-30 years tabs will be replaced with actual snapshot images of the fretting hand on the fretboard. Then we'll have people complaining about tabs not being visual enough or not having enough practice time to memorize fret numbers etc. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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'I think we can safely establish at this point that Litterick and blackcat are beginners who are trolling the jazz forum.' Now that is a bit of a leap. Cannot speak for Litterick, but you obviously missed my earlier post where I stated very clealy that I learnt to read many years ago when learning clarinet before taking up guitar. I teach adults from time to time and deploy both tab and notation as required I have also acted as design consultant to one respected maker of archtop guitars and more. Beginner I am not. As for Christian, I have a good deal of respect for his teaching on line and his playing, notably on his new(ish) CD. At the same time I have been intrigued by his standpoint in this matter. Nothing personal about it. Not helpful for you to suggest it. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Now how about you Tal?
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don't go off topic
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You said you were a hobbyist who took up jazz after retirement in multiple posts, no? Originally Posted by blackcat
Originally Posted by blackcat
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Play badly is much to vague to make sense of but it could be similar to my experience playing with a classical pianist that I've been working with for over 8 years now playing jazz. Originally Posted by kris
I don't know such professionals.Read well and play badly...?
are they jazz musicians?
I know pretty good players and bad readers.
He is a very great reader, but still struggles to swing and play in a jazz style. He is so use to playing solo that he just can't stop playing the melody 24\7.
Even when we play The Beatles, his reading ability makes for a poor session; This is because the The Beatles music book he has was written for solo piano; left hand does the chords, right hand the melody, 100% of the time!!!
Thus he is always playing on-top of what I'm doing. He doesn't play one song without music in front of him, while I play all the songs with no music in front of me. Oh well.
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You said you were a hobbyist who took up jazz after retirement in multiple posts, no? Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by blackcat 
Which bit was irrelevant? All of it seemingly. How can you possibly compare the needs of an amateur 'debutante' wanting to play some jazz on a strictly hobby basis, perhaps in retirement and with little prospect of playing with others - ever? You ( seemingly ) live and operate in a rarified cosmopolitan atmosphere Christian. Not the same.
Merely citing the hypothetical example/case.
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I understand that. Originally Posted by jameslovestal
But we're talking about jazz musicians who can play jazz.
reads well - plays well
reads poorly - plays well
he doesn't read at all - he plays well
I don't mean classical musicians trying to play jazz.
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In any case, having done some reading on clarinet in your youth doesn't automatically translate to having reading skills on guitar. I learned to read in elementary school on various instruments. Later on I played guitar for many years without knowing how to read "on guitar". Sure, I could figure out the notes, but I wouldn't consider that reading. I had to work on reading on guitar when I decided to learn jazz 8 or 9 years ago. I'm not a great reader or anything. But I've gotten sufficiently comfortable with it that I prefer the standard notation to reading tabs. Originally Posted by blackcat
You said you were a hobbyist who took up jazz after retirement in multiple posts, no?
Originally Posted by blackcat
Which bit was irrelevant? All of it seemingly. How can you possibly compare the needs of an amateur 'debutante' wanting to play some jazz on a strictly hobby basis, perhaps in retirement and with little prospect of playing with others - ever? You ( seemingly ) live and operate in a rarified cosmopolitan atmosphere Christian. Not the same.
Merely citing the hypothetical example/case.Last edited by Tal_175; 04-11-2023 at 01:15 PM.
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Relevant upload from Frank Vignola
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As I've stated before, there are situations in which I would find tab helpful -- generally involving tricky ways to play things. That is, things where you can't get the right sound without the right fingering - which isn't obvious and is awkward to notate using standard notation. I've read Guinga's book, to give an example. His fingerings are essential to the sound, often quite unusual and often hard to play because of the stretches. In standard notation, you have to decode the little numbers for string and finger, which is time consuming. It's not available in tab, but it would be helpful if it was available.
But, I digress. The actual point I wanted to make is that often it seems like the tab is generated by computer and actually doesn't accomplish the goal. I certainly don't need tab to give me a vanilla fingering or a bad fingering.
So, the point is, if the tab is well done and reflects a tricky fingering, that's great. But that isn't always the case. So I'm making a distinction between useful and non-useful tab - for someone who does read standard notation.
As far as using tab for most music -- standard notation is better and it isn't all that hard to learn.
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How about I make a suggestion about useful reading to learn?
the priority for jazzers and pop session players is not necessarily to be able to fluently read sight read written guitar music, but develop the ability to interpret jazz and other band charts. These might be the sort of thing you see in the Real Book (lead sheets) and guitar parts (such as in an arranged pad). In both cases I think the important skills to acquire are:
- chord symbol reading. This is common to guitarists of course and I think most (all?) here will have already looked into it at least but its obviously the most important thing. It’s good to start with one down. This can be quite intense in big band charts and so on as discussed elsewhere. It’s not all standard lead sheet level. So graded material is helpful here.
- rhythmic reading - being able to interpret rhythmic details in charts, often rhythmic hits and stabs which you find in many lead sheets and all arrangements and counting tacets etc that you find in arranged parts. I would advise getting comfortable with this before the next step actually. Louis Bellson’s modern reading text in 4/4 is indispensable. Just pages and pages of rhythms.
if you like, you can have a half way house where you read tab notes with staff notation style rhythm notation while you are working on this. Some books have this and I think Musescore does it.
This step is very important, worth spending time getting used to. You can also practice it away from the guitar and this is probably a good idea to get rid of the distraction if you are a noodler. You have to audiate rhythm really. Pitches you can play automatically if you have positions dialled in (not ideal but it works) but this stuff you have to hear on the page. So be patient.
Divide the bar in half, helps a lot and then there’s not that many combinations of eighth notes. Divide into 4 for 16th rhythms and you have the same with an extra line.
I think monotone singing is good as well as tapping. Helps get this stuff in the ears.
- single note reading - ok, so believe it or not I think rhythm is the hardest part of this most of the time. Jazz and pop rhythms look awkward and busy on the page, so the last step will help an awful lot. Other than that, it’s about mapping the pitches on the guitar. Positional approach works fine at first.
Name notes on the staff out loud, spell words in note heads, just get used to what’s what if you aren’t used to reading at all.
On the guitar play BAD DAD CABBAGE FACE in all positions and octaves to get the notes in C. Say as you play to anchor note names on the fretboard. Then as you get comfy in C move around the cycle - the flat side obviously needs attention as that’s where the horns live (much like millipedes under a damp log) - and another reason why reading classical guitar music won’t really prepare you
then reading material. Omnibook. Any real books you can find. I like Adam Levy’s jazz guitar reading book. The Randy Vincent Guitarists introduction to jazz.
15 minutes a day, 5m each. Back burner it - it builds up fast and if you aren’t used to this kind of thing you’ll make rapid noob gains.
If you get comfortable with these three I think you’ll be pretty functional in bands and workshops. You don’t have to be a virtuoso reader to be useful and if your personal hygiene is in order and you don’t play a pointy doom plank other instruments will want to spend time with you.Last edited by Christian Miller; 04-11-2023 at 04:44 PM.
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Here's how I learned to read. I thought it was pretty painless.
Beginners book. I used a Belwin method, but I think Mel Bay book I would be fine.
Next, Mel Bay II.
Now, onto jazz. Colin/Bower Rhythms Complete, which is still available and not expensive. Play everything as written and then an octave up.
That is to get yourself to the point where you can play anything in any octave.
For an adult who can already get around on the instrument, this is maybe 6 months of effort. When you finish Colin/Bower you'll be able to read most of the Real Book. And, you'll have the skills to decode the passages which are hard to read.
After that, you get better the more you read. If you can find a horn band or big band with intermediate charts, that will be very helpful. When the guitar has to phrase with the horns, you'll soon find out how accurate you are, which is important feedback.
There are rehearsal bands, sometimes called reading bands, where players get together party to work on their reading. You won't see any tab with a horn band.
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I don’t know the Colin/bowers book; I’ll check it out. The thing about reading is you can never have enough stuff to read…. Otoh I don’t really like stuff that’s too exercisy. Give me some sugar.
My Leavitt reading books stay on my shelf for this reason. I did spend some time slogging through them because that’s what all the guitarists I knew, including my flatmate, read. It took me a while to realise that I just didn’t like the way they sounded and life’s too short. Obviously the material is graded and very well organised, but that’s not the be all and end all. It’s important to practice musically, and I think that includes reading music you enjoy not just etudes for the sake of it (of course if you love the Leavitt stuff, go for it.)
Bellson is a classic. It was recommended me by various teachers, Reg also swears by it Iirc. I’ve given away a few copies. Just thrown them at people who I think could get something from it. Go buy another copy. It gets really surreal with some of the notation lol.
Other than that, I think it’s good to read good music? It’s nice to have a reward. The Adam Levy book is really great for this and both accessible and challenging. Just wish it were longer .
the octave thing is a very good point btw.
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Boom! Originally Posted by blackcat
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The Bellson book basically recycles a portion of the melody from One Note Samba, but varies the rhythm.
Colin/Bower's contents, by now, are extremely old fashioned sounding syncopathed swing rhythms. I don't see a publication date on my copy, but I got it in 1964.
The exercises are like little songs and include chord changes. Start pretty easy if you finished Mel Bay 2, but, by the end, they're comparable in difficulty to a lot of what I read regularly in my big bands.
They present 26 different rhythmic components which are shown with arrows to tell you which way your foot is going when you should play the note. Then you play a little song using that rhythm, among others.
The material goes up to 6 flats but only 3 sharps. As a historical note, the key of E was invented in 1955, which explains that. B and F# were developed soon thereafter, but also well after the book was written.
My teacher back then, Sid Margolis, wrote in the date of each lesson. They go from 9/25/64 to 4/7/65. I started at the beginning of 1964. So, part of this was learning the fingerboard above the 4th fret, because Sid had me play all of it an octave up as well as as-written.
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What an ugly thing to say. The fact that you use 'beginner' as a term of abuse says so much about you. You really are a nasty little man. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Last edited by Litterick; 04-11-2023 at 07:21 PM.
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So what? Originally Posted by kris
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