How frowned upon is using guitar tablature?

[Litterick]

This thread has seen better days.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

For studies and transcriptions it’s great. I always choose the “treble clef plus tab” template in Finale.

There are often multiple locations on the fretboard where we can play a series of notes, so tab is probably the best way to indicate the intended location. The William Leavitt way was to use a Roman numeral below the clef to indicate position and fingering numbers above the notes, where things were dicey or a temporary shift was called for. Tab essentially accomplishes the same thing although not in identical fashion. It doesn’t tell you what finger to use but you can figure that out, and it’s more visual.

“Treble clef plus tab”is a good thing.

[blackcat]

For studies and transcriptions it’s great. I always choose the “treble clef plus tab” template in Finale.

There are often multiple locations on the fretboard where we can play a series of notes, so tab is probably the best way to indicate the intended location. The William Leavitt way was to use a Roman numeral below the clef to indicate position and fingering numbers above the notes, where things were dicey or a temporary shift was called for. Tab essentially accomplishes the same thing although not in identical fashion. It doesn’t tell you what finger to use but you can figure that out, and it’s more visual.

“Treble clef plus tab”is a good thing.

Good man.

[Christian Miller]

For studies and transcriptions it’s great. I always choose the “treble clef plus tab” template in Finale.

For myself, I rarely write solos down for my own use. Some people like to have a big library of stuff they’ve transcribed, and I can see the value in that, it’s just not something I’ve ever done myself.

when I put things out on my channel, I usually include tab. I actually find this a pain in the behind, because I really have to think about it (how did I finger that run again?), triple check it unlike notation, and I’m not 100% my fingering choices will work for every player- but it increases accessibility and that’s important. Tbh I kind of resent that I have to spend valuable time doing this, but this is the world we live in.

There are often multiple locations on the fretboard where we can play a series of notes, so tab is probably the best way to indicate the intended location.

Beyond trying to play Wes etc with exact fingerings (which can be educational), there may be in fact no correct location and instead your fingering and positional choices are dependent on your approach, musicianship, creativity and most importantly, how you are hearing the phrase. In this sense the multiple ways we can play a given phrase represents a feature not a bug.

That’s one of the cool things about notation for me; it detaches music from mechanics. Musical notation gives the desired effect. Good readers hear what they play. Tab otoh is mechanical and concerned with how to do something - (again this may be very helpful at the early stages but it does not for me represent an end point for musicianship.)

The William Leavitt way was to use a Roman numeral below the clef to indicate position and fingering numbers above the notes, where things were dicey or a temporary shift was called for.

this is the classical guitar approach btw

Tab essentially accomplishes the same thing although not in identical fashion. It doesn’t tell you what finger to use but you can figure that out, and it’s more visual.

Perhaps we should try to move towards being less visual. I think Jimmy blue note said something about that.

“Treble clef plus tab”is a good thing.

I have to disagree. Beyond the first few years of getting it together on guitar, there’s absolutely nothing that I can think of about habitually reading from tab that will make you a stronger musician (and give notation and tab together I will still stare at the bloody tab lol). Maybe someone can think of something I’ve missed, but I think all the tab defenders realise this deep down, so they instead accuse others of being snobby, preachy or puritanical etc.

I can think of other things in life that elicit the same emotions lol. And no one likes being lectured about those either haha.

But that’s just the truth of it and the sincerest advice I can give any guitarist who wants to be better at music. Use tab in the short term if it helps, but long term, aim to phase it out as much as you can. It would actually be better imo to use no notation at all.

I would have ignored this advice myself tbf.

[kris]

For studies and transcriptions it’s great. I always choose the “treble clef plus tab” template in Finale.

There are often multiple locations on the fretboard where we can play a series of notes, so tab is probably the best way to indicate the intended location. The William Leavitt way was to use a Roman numeral below the clef to indicate position and fingering numbers above the notes, where things were dicey or a temporary shift was called for. Tab essentially accomplishes the same thing although not in identical fashion. It doesn’t tell you what finger to use but you can figure that out, and it’s more visual.

“Treble clef plus tab”is a good thing.

You can specify finger numbers in tablature for the left and right hands.
Guitarpro has this feature and there is no problem with it.
I don't know since when this fashion for guitar tablatures started.
When I was a music school student there were normal sheet music and everyone knew which fingers to use.
This was often corrected by the teacher.
Interestingly, many famous classical guitarists use different fingers for the same piece of music.
For example, the arrangement of the classical tunes by Andres Segovia.

[Christian Miller]

You can specify finger numbers in tablature for the left and right hands.
Guitarpro has this feature and there is no problem with it.
I don't know since when this fashion for guitar tablatures started.
When I was a music school student there were normal sheet music and everyone knew which fingers to use.
This was often corrected by the teacher.
Interestingly, many famous classical guitarists use different fingers for the same piece of music.

of course they do! It’s part of the interpretation

i mean i assume there’s set fingerings for some very technical things, but beyond that, these people are creative artists not musical typists.

different editions too- if I look at Segovia or Julian Breams fingerings for a Bach lute suite they will be totally different to my more recent edition. Otoh my edition loves campenalas over-ringing scales which sound cool and a little bit harpsichord-like but totally different to more conventional positions. Both represent different interpretations of the same basic music but the editors are hearing it differently.

[Christian Miller]

All of that said, I’d love to hear Rob’s perspective as an extremely refined musican who often plays from historical tab on lute (and staff notation on guitar etc) and also someone who understands the historical context far better than I.

[Litterick]

Beyond the first few years of getting it together on guitar, there’s absolutely nothing that I can think of about habitually reading from tab that will make you a stronger musician (and give notation and tab together I will still stare at the bloody tab lol). Maybe someone can think of something I’ve missed, but I think all the tab defenders realise this deep down, so they instead accuse others of being snobby, preachy or puritanical etc.

ffs (ma non troppo)

[Christian Miller]

ffs (ma non troppo)

well do you have anything that I might have missed then? Is there a way in which reading from tab develops one’s skills as a musician?

You know I’m right haha ;-) and yes it’s also annoying and preachy. But there you go.

[Skip Ellis]

I learned to read notation in the 4th grade (1955, age 10) playing violin in the school orchestra. Played all through middle school and high school. Made it much easier to learn guitar when I started in high school - once I figured out where the notes were, it was smooth sailing - my 'practice' in jr college was reading through fake books and figuring out chord melody on the fly. I think the first TAB I ever saw was some ragtime stuff from Stefan Grossman in the early 70's - loved the music (rags/chet/Merle) but was way more successful figuring it out by combination of lead sheet and ear; the TAB just confused me. Since then, I've collected thousands of TABS for everything from Wes to Celtic but find myself reading the notation line instead of the TAB. The only time I find TAB useful is in dealing with stuff in altered tunings (DADGAD) because none of the notes are in the right places - sometimes TAB is the only way to get something under your fingers. Probably why I'm having such a hard time playing in DADGAD because I rarely play anything the same way twice, and with that stuff, you have no room for improvisation unless you're really familiar with the tuning (which I'm not). Notation has also made it possible for me to get a lot of work over the years doing orchestra pit work (love it!!) - those arrangers don't give you TAB. The last Equity show I did was, I believe, 78 pages of notation. Our 4 piece band talked through it once, played through it once, played through it once with the lead singer/actress, played it again for tech rehearsal/blocking, and opened the next night - couldn't have done that without being able to read notation, plus it had to be played to perfection every single performance ( 8 shows a week/6 weeks) because the on-stage movements were cued to the music and it was all cued to computer controlled lighting changes. Yep - notation can be useful. As always, YMMV.

[Christian Miller]

I learned to read notation in the 4th grade (1955, age 10) playing violin in the school orchestra. Played all through middle school and high school. Made it much easier to learn guitar when I started in high school - once I figured out where the notes were, it was smooth sailing - my 'practice' in jr college was reading through fake books and figuring out chord melody on the fly. I think the first TAB I ever saw was some ragtime stuff from Stefan Grossman in the early 70's - loved the music (rags/chet/Merle) but was way more successful figuring it out by combination of lead sheet and ear; the TAB just confused me. Since then, I've collected thousands of TABS for everything from Wes to Celtic but find myself reading the notation line instead of the TAB. The only time I find TAB useful is in dealing with stuff in altered tunings (DADGAD) because none of the notes are in the right places - sometimes TAB is the only way to get something under your fingers. Probably why I'm having such a hard time playing in DADGAD because I rarely play anything the same way twice, and with that stuff, you have no room for improvisation unless you're really familiar with the tuning (which I'm not). Notation has also made it possible for me to get a lot of work over the years doing orchestra pit work (love it!!) - those arrangers don't give you TAB. The last Equity show I did was, I believe, 78 pages of notation. Our 4 piece band talked through it once, played through it once, played through it once with the lead singer/actress, played it again for tech rehearsal/blocking, and opened the next night - couldn't have done that without being able to read notation, plus it had to be played to perfection every single performance ( 8 shows a week/6 weeks) because the on-stage movements were cued to the music and it was all cued to computer controlled lighting changes. Yep - notation can be useful. As always, YMMV.

yeah to be honest alt tunings is a big blind spot for me. I think to be free within dadgad for instance you have to spend some time just playing only in that tuning. Probably you can read if you force yourself.

Things like lute tuning (G=F#) and drop D I tend to avoid although they are common for playing lute rep on guitar. The former makes it possible to play lute tab, but I’ve seen it suggested for pieces in staff notation too. Tbh I tend to ignore the suggestion.

There are people out there who double on banjo, mandolin and guitar, so clearly getting used to multiple tunings is possible.

Your reading experience sounds about standard for theatre stuff. I’ve had the same sort of thing.

[Skip Ellis]

yeah to be honest alt tunings is a big blind spot for me. I think to be free within dadgad for instance you have to spend some time just playing only in that tuning. Probably you can read if you force yourself.

Things like lute tuning (G=F#) and drop D I tend to avoid although they are common for playing lute rep on guitar. The former makes it possible to play lute tab, but I’ve seen it suggested for pieces in staff notation too. Tbh I tend to ignore the suggestion.

Your reading experience is not unusual for theatre stuff. I’ve had the same sort of thing.

I really like a lot of the DADGAD stuff as well as Stephen Wake's Orkney tuning and even got a nice UK built Brook guitar to devote to it, but haven't put in the time to be successful at it yet. Sometimes I think that the effort is too much to put into learning the few tunes that I would really like to play plus, I just really hate playing anything the same way twice (disregarding theater, of course). If you haven't heard Stephen Wake, check him out on YT.

Another weird thing about my theater gigs is that I'm often times required to double on pedal steel and I don't read on pedal steel (few do) but I've figured out a way to kind of hear the written line in my head and then play the 'shape' of the notation on the steel. Hard to explain - you sorta have to be there...LOL

[blackcat]

yeah to be honest alt tunings is a big blind spot for me. I think to be free within dadgad for instance you have to spend some time just playing only in that tuning. Probably you can read if you force yourself.

Things like lute tuning (G=F#) and drop D I tend to avoid although they are common for playing lute rep on guitar. The former makes it possible to play lute tab, but I’ve seen it suggested for pieces in staff notation too. Tbh I tend to ignore the suggestion.

There are people out there who double on banjo, mandolin and guitar, so clearly getting used to multiple tunings is possible.

Your reading experience sounds about standard for theatre stuff. I’ve had the same sort of thing.

And there you surely have it Christian. For this debate to progress on any meaningful basis it would require Dirk to conduct a breakdown of the membership of this forum or at least those who clearly have the spare time to toss this subject about and then take a view of those with a musical education, those with the need to read as in your theatre reference and those ( many, one suspects ) who came to (jazz) guitar at a late stage and require quick access as opposed to embarking on a parallel learning path. Here in France they would also be forced to take on board standard/moveable solfege if they wished to engage with French/European musicians.

[kris]

And everyone would finally play at the world level.

[Christian Miller]

And there you surely have it Christian. For this debate to progress on any meaningful basis it would require Dirk to conduct a breakdown of the membership of this forum or at least those who clearly have the spare time to toss this subject about and then take a view of those with a musical education, those with the need to read as in your theatre reference and those ( many, one suspects ) who came to (jazz) guitar at a late stage and require quick access as opposed to embarking on a parallel learning path. Here in France they would also be forced to take on board standard/moveable solfege if they wished to engage with French/European musicians.

lol. No. Sorry that’s irrelevant. In fact the only place that’s an issue sometimes is with chord symbols. It doesn’t really matter what you call the notes. Notation is consistent.

look one can pretend there’s some sort of debate to be had here, but in terms of jazz there isn’t one. You can’t really debate this because it actually isn’t based on some argument that can be questioned, it’s just how people do things within that community. We aren’t talking about lute music or DADGAD folk players; we are talking about jazz. (The fact that I don’t like tab much in general is something of a seperate thing)

if one uses tab atm I’m not going to say you are a bad person etc, but I would encourage one to move towards ear learning and staff notation because that’s what would increase your skill set for playing jazz and make one both a stronger musician and more able to participate in ensembles and workshops with other musicians. It’s annoying to be nagged, but we all had it in our time haha, or learned the lesson the hard way as I did.

[blackcat]

lol. No. Sorry that’s irrelevant. In fact the only place that’s an issue sometimes is with chord symbols. It doesn’t really matter what you call the notes. Notation is consistent.

look one can pretend there’s some sort of debate to be had here, but in terms of jazz there isn’t one. You can’t really debate this because it actually isn’t based on some argument that can be questioned, it’s just how people do things within that community. We aren’t talking about lute music or DADGAD folk players; we are talking about jazz. (The fact that I don’t like tab much in general is something of a seperate thing)

if one uses tab atm I’m not going to say you are a bad person etc, but I would encourage one to move towards ear learning and staff notation because that’s what would increase your skill set for playing jazz and make one both a stronger musician and more able to participate in ensembles and workshops with other musicians. It’s annoying to be nagged, but we all had it in our time haha, or learned the lesson the hard way as I did.

Which bit was irrelevant? All of it seemingly. How can you possibly compare the needs of an amateur 'debutante' wanting to play some jazz on a strictly hobby basis, perhaps in retirement and with little prospect of playing with others - ever? You ( seemingly ) live and operate in a rarified cosmopolitan atmosphere Christian. Not the same.

[AllanAllen]

The thing with alternate tunings like DADGAD or open D or G. You don't play what you already know in the new tuning. These open tunings are good for a few licks, and you play those licks with great enthusiasm. Just listen, truly pay attention to 5 Elmore James songs. You'll see they're all the same. That's the beauty of the open tunings, they take away so much of the learning curve. You learn a lick with the open strings, then you move it to the 5th fret, back to open, up to the 7th fret, just like that you're off to the races. There isn't much more to learn and if you're trying harder than that you're doing it wrong.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

For myself, I rarely write solos down for my own use. Some people like to have a big library of stuff they’ve transcribed, and I can see the value in that, it’s just not something I’ve ever done myself.

when I put things out on my channel, I usually include tab. I actually find this a pain in the behind, because I really have to think about it (how did I finger that run again?), triple check it unlike notation, and I’m not 100% my fingering choices will work for every player- but it increases accessibility and that’s important. Tbh I kind of resent that I have to spend valuable time doing this, but this is the world we live in.



Beyond trying to play Wes etc with exact fingerings (which can be educational), there may be in fact no correct location and instead your fingering and positional choices are dependent on your approach, musicianship, creativity and most importantly, how you are hearing the phrase. In this sense the multiple ways we can play a given phrase represents a feature not a bug.

That’s one of the cool things about notation for me; it detaches music from mechanics. Musical notation gives the desired effect. Good readers hear what they play. Tab otoh is mechanical and concerned with how to do something - (again this may be very helpful at the early stages but it does not for me represent an end point for musicianship.)


this is the classical guitar approach btw



Perhaps we should try to move towards being less visual. I think Jimmy blue note said something about that.



I have to disagree. Beyond the first few years of getting it together on guitar, there’s absolutely nothing that I can think of about habitually reading from tab that will make you a stronger musician (and give notation and tab together I will still stare at the bloody tab lol). Maybe someone can think of something I’ve missed, but I think all the tab defenders realise this deep down, so they instead accuse others of being snobby, preachy or puritanical etc.

I can think of other things in life that elicit the same emotions lol. And no one likes being lectured about those either haha.

But that’s just the truth of it and the sincerest advice I can give any guitarist who wants to be better at music. Use tab in the short term if it helps, but long term, aim to phase it out as much as you can. It would actually be better imo to use no notation at all.

I would have ignored this advice myself tbf.

I really don't "read tab" as it were. I read notation, but think that tab can be a helpful reference, especially when learning something as.... unpredictable? as jazz improv material.

In other words, it can be helpful as an educational tool. I wouldn't expect to see it in a chart.

[Tal_175]

Which bit was irrelevant? All of it seemingly. How can you possibly compare the needs of an amateur 'debutante' wanting to play some jazz on a strictly hobby basis, perhaps in retirement and with little prospect of playing with others - ever? You ( seemingly ) live and operate in a rarified cosmopolitan atmosphere Christian. Not the same.

Yes, it's goes without saying that it all depends on where the player sets the ceiling for themselves. Reading notation can indeed be an objective that's completely disconnected from where the player is at or where they realistically will ever be at.

[Christian Miller]

Which bit was irrelevant?

the bit about what the notes are called in solfege etc. It doesn’t matter. Staff notation is the same.

All of it seemingly. How can you possibly compare the needs of an amateur 'debutante' wanting to play some jazz on a strictly hobby basis, perhaps in retirement and with little prospect of playing with others - ever? You ( seemingly ) live and operate in a rarified cosmopolitan atmosphere Christian. Not the same.

I dunno, I am a professional musician and educator who plays presumably to a decent level, lives in an capital city with a lot of fantastic musicians, and I’ve played a lot of gigs over the years, so sure my experience now is different. But that’s obviously not where I started.

When I started learning jazz guitar I went to weekend workshops for beginners and classes with other players of different instruments right away. It was apparent what was expected early on; we’d work from lead sheets and worksheets in standard notation. The people in these groups were amateurs mostly much older than me including retirees. I barely knew a major seventh from a dominant seventh. I was also a terrible reader.

I think that regular playing experience was incredibly important to me.

Tbf I did at that point live in a large town with a good music scene. tbh jazz is city music, social music, always has been, but even if for some reason I ended up in the country (hard to imagine for me I have to say, I’m a townie through and through) I think I’d make it a matter of priority to find some players somewhere even if that meant travelling. There are summer schools and so on as well. To me a lot of the fun, perhaps most of it, is playing with others.

Otherwise, suit yourself and live your best life playing solo, but I am talking about the jazz community. That implies more than one person I think. Otherwise who cares who frowns on what? Do your own thing.

[Christian Miller]

I really don't "read tab" as it were. I read notation, but think that tab can be a helpful reference, especially when learning something as.... unpredictable? as jazz improv material.

In other words, it can be helpful as an educational tool. I wouldn't expect to see it in a chart.

yeah that’s the long and short of it. As I say it’s a long term thing.

[Skip Ellis]

the bit about what the notes are called in solfege etc. It doesn’t matter. Staff notation is the same.



I dunno. When I started learning jazz guitar I went to weekend workshops for beginners and classes with other players of different instruments. It was apparent what was expected early on. The people in these groups were amateurs taught by local professionals .

play guitar on your own purely for yourself that’s cool, but I am talking about the jazz community. That implies more than one person I think. Some make big efforts to play music with other people if they don’t live near cities etc.

tbh jazz is city music, always has been, but even if for some reason I ended up in the country (hard to imagine for me I have to say, I’m a city person through and through) I think I’d make it a matter of priority to find some players somewhere even if that meant travelling.

Otherwise, suit yourself and live your best life, but don’t expect what you are saying to have much relevance to the music in general.

If you think country guys can't play jazz, listen to Buddy Emmons or Curly Chalker - WOW! But as you said, when you get into a situation (band, workshop, or whatever), the expectations become apparent and you can either do it or you can't and go home. I was once given a shot at a theater production (my first) by a friend who happened to be the musical director; asked me if I could read and I said "some" so she told me to show up at rehearsal and there was a half dozen horns, drummer (percussion prof from local college who wrote method books), ex Broadway bass player, the leader on piano and little ol' me with my Telecaster and Super Reverb (straight out of a country band). Oh, and the show I was hired for: 'Evita' by Andrew Lloyd Webber! Some of the gnarliest stuff I ever had to play but I got it done and was called for more shows after that. So, as Christian says, there is a difference between the 'hobby' music community and the professional music community - not that one is any better than the other, it's just that expectations and skill level are higher in one than the other and it is possible to go from one to the other with study and practice if one desires. I know of people on the Acoustic Guitar Forum who will spend months working out the TAB to a Tommy Emmanuel tune and are happy that they can somewhat (haltingly) play it and it makes them happy and they go on to the next one, but you just can't do that sort of thing and take that amount of time in a professional situation. Same with studio work - time is money. That's why Brian Wilson used 'The Wrecking Crew' on all his hit records because his band was made up of neophyte players and studio time is expensive; once the song was recorded, the band could learn it in time to tour and they had the original studio guys to help them along. Just my $0.02.

[sgosnell]

For jazz on a steel, the late Tom Morrell was no slouch. Nor Herb Remington, who played on the Bob Wills Tiffany Transcriptions, which was mostly jazz. Listen to Tiny Moore's solo on Mission to Moscow and tell me that isn't jazz. Or any of Jimmy Wyble's work with Wills. For contemporary country/jazz, there's the High Plains Riffters, Rich O'Brien, Whit Smith, and Bruce Forman. Jazz is a very big tent.

[Christian Miller]

If you think country guys can't play jazz, listen to Buddy Emmons or Curly Chalker - WOW!

well country in the UK has a different connotation lol..

But… Nashville is a city isn’t it? And a magnet for great musicians. ;-)

but yeah, thinking of country music that’s still a social music, a community… maybe less wedded to the city. Bluegrass to me is kind of of rural jazz. But you are always going to think of the jazz cities - New Orleans, Detroit, Chicago, Kansas city and of course New York.

But as you said, when you get into a situation (band, workshop, or whatever), the expectations become apparent and you can either do it or you can't and go home. I was once given a shot at a theater production (my first) by a friend who happened to be the musical director; asked me if I could read and I said "some" so she told me to show up at rehearsal and there was a half dozen horns, drummer (percussion prof from local college who wrote method books), ex Broadway bass player, the leader on piano and little ol' me with my Telecaster and Super Reverb (straight out of a country band). Oh, and the show I was hired for: 'Evita' by Andrew Lloyd Webber! Some of the gnarliest stuff I ever had to play but I got it done and was called for more shows after that. So, as Christian says, there is a difference between the 'hobby' music community and the professional music community - not that one is any better than the other, it's just that expectations and skill level are higher in one than the other and it is possible to go from one to the other with study and practice if one desires. I know of people on the Acoustic Guitar Forum who will spend months working out the TAB to a Tommy Emmanuel tune and are happy that they can somewhat (haltingly) play it and it makes them happy and they go on to the next one, but you just can't do that sort of thing and take that amount of time in a professional situation. Same with studio work - time is money. That's why Brian Wilson used 'The Wrecking Crew' on all his hit records because his band was made up of neophyte players and studio time is expensive; once the song was recorded, the band could learn it in time to tour and they had the original studio guys to help them along. Just my $0.02.

tbh it’s not just the pro community… jazz just isn’t guitar dominant even at the amateur level. You will be communicating with pianists, horn players, and drummers. To play jazz you kind of need to get beyond the guitar to some level. It’s not about being a virtuoso necessarily, it’s about looking at music from a different perspective. Even interpreting chord symbols needs a different way of looking at chords I think.

[blackcat]

the bit about what the notes are called in solfege etc. It doesn’t matter. Staff notation is the same.



I dunno, I am a professional musician and educator who plays presumably to a decent level, lives in an capital city with a lot of fantastic musicians, and I’ve played a lot of gigs over the years, so sure my experience now is different. But that’s obviously not where I started.

When I started learning jazz guitar I went to weekend workshops for beginners and classes with other players of different instruments right away. It was apparent what was expected early on; we’d work from lead sheets and worksheets in standard notation. The people in these groups were amateurs mostly much older than me including retirees. I barely knew a major seventh from a dominant seventh. I was also a terrible reader.

I think that regular playing experience was incredibly important to me.

Tbf I did at that point live in a large town with a good music scene. tbh jazz is city music, social music, always has been, but even if for some reason I ended up in the country (hard to imagine for me I have to say, I’m a townie through and through) I think I’d make it a matter of priority to find some players somewhere even if that meant travelling. There are summer schools and so on as well. To me a lot of the fun, perhaps most of it, is playing with others.

Otherwise, suit yourself and live your best life playing solo, but I am talking about the jazz community. That implies more than one person I think. Otherwise who cares who frowns on what? Do your own thing.

You are missing the point Christian - with eloquence. My point about solfege was simply that for hobbyists it is one more thing to learn. The many questions posed on this forum in relation to harmony, improvization and theory in general point up the extent to which it is all something of a mystery to those entering from a blues/rock/pop context. As for playing with others - its a choice. Clearly, I must get out more. However, solo is sufficient of a challenge for me at this point. The jazz 'community' ( your term ) is largely a figment of the imagination in this part of rural France. The irony is that we have over 500 'jazz' festivals here - large and small ranging from Marciac and Vienne to small local events, but we also have perhaps the lowest population density in the country and I can tell you that even with travelling thrown in it remains difficult to locate other players.