Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 44
  1. #1

    User Info Menu



    Overjoyed's verse has these chords:

    |Eb|Cm|Fm|B7sus B7|

    |Eb|Cm|F/A|G/B|

    |C|G/B|.....

    Maybe you guys hear it differently.

    But what I wanted to talk about is how he gets from the key of Eb to C. I think it is great. I think he must have had that melody going and then decided he wanted to work the B natural into it in bar 8. And then he realized he was undoing all three of the flats in Eb and heading to C. And he makes the bass rise A, B, C. And he goes with the F and G, subdominant and dominant in C.

    I give this theory because absent a melody, I wouldn't have a clue how to get from Eb to C. I take that back. Yeah, think Eb to Cm then modal interchange to C. But I would have to go through a lot of trial and error.

    I am often in this spot where I want a quick key change that sounds good and hopefully even great. But it is usually at the end of a section after my melody has ended. And I usually end up just going for some cliché pivot chord BS and only changing the key signature by one or two sharps/flats. And it sounds so predictable.

    So, first question: Can you really write a great key change without a great melody? Be honest now!

    Second question: If so, can we get a master table of key change progressions that goes beyond the cliches? Can't be that many possibilities can there? Or are there?
    Last edited by jster; 02-12-2014 at 03:34 PM. Reason: Removed a stupidity, hopefully before anybody notices

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    I think you can write a 'clever' key change without even considering melody...but it's a good melody that really makes a key change work.

    Eb being related to Cm, really and then going to C major...very simple, and very underused in pop/rock. Hell, key changes in general in pop music suck...Too much "Barry mail or key change" up a half step for the last chorus...Stevie ' s just brilliant.

    Although one of my favorite key changes in pop music history IS the half step bump in "and I love her" by the Beatles...but it's all about timing in that one.

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Changing the relative minor to major is about as cliched a modulation device as any. Early New Orleans and ragtime music is full of it. Studying the bridges of show tunes by Porter, Gerswin, Rogers, etc., are great examples of clever departures away from the main key and finding their way back, or onto other things. These writers were craftsmen. Bacharach has his devices. The answers are in the great songs. Gershwin went to Europe in hopes of studying composing with Stravinsky. Stravinsky refused him, saying it would corrupt Gershwin's natural musical genius.
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 02-13-2014 at 05:21 AM.

  5. #4
    I have used minor to major, just not relative minor to major.

    As you say, these things are devices. There aren't that many of them really. I'm pretty sure that there are more ways to cook chicken than change keys. I can buy a book of chicken recipes. Why not a book of key change recipes? And yes, I agree about the great songs. But when I'm writing, I need something right now to get me from one place to another. I have about a dozen or so of my own. All clichés of course. It is the other 100 or so that I would love to have quick access to. It wouldn't be that hard to organize them all. You have a key you are in, the key you want to go to, the chord you are on within the key, and perhaps the chord you want to go to within the target key. And maybe you could have two volumes. A melody note independent one, and a melody note dependent one. I'm pretty sure that there would be buyers for it. What serious songwriter wouldn't want a copy?

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Gershwin went to Europe in hopes of studying composing with Stravinsky. Stravinsky refused him, saying it would corrupt Gershwin's natural musical genius.
    There is this famous story, which Stravinsky said he liked even though it wasn't true, Gershwin asked Stravinsky for lessons and when Stravinsky heard how much Gershwin earned, Stravinsky replied with words to the effect of, "You should give me lessons.

  7. #6
    Isn't out there a Stevie Wonder's Real Book? It would be GREAT to have his chord changes and melody written for all us to study and enjoy.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    It is very cool but I can asure you S Wonder didn't invent this type of modulation
    A third up or down, is very common in classical music and also reccurent in popmusic

    This song uses it beautifully too (D to F) :


    This one in minor, a great song too (Am-Cm)


    Here's another one, very pop, but with the same type relative modulation that gives it identity and imo made the song the international hit it was(F to Ab)
    Last edited by vhollund; 07-17-2014 at 02:26 PM.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    I think in the History of the Rock and R&B Era probably the most gifted we have had would be the Beatles for great Melodies.

    And probably the most skilled would be
    Steely Dan - you could ask them to do a Rhumba in 5/4 with a Blues Feel and 3 Key Changes...and they could do it...lol.

    And Stevie Wonder is way up there also...

    In fact my favorite Fusion is not Fusion- It's Steely Dan and Stevie Wonder...

    They are both in many ways comparable or even beyond in some ways the great Composers like Gershwin, etc.
    wouldn't you guys agree ?

    Has any great Horn Player ever done a version of " Too High" - would make an awesome modern Jazz Tune - right ?
    I can hear it....
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 12-14-2015 at 11:39 PM.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu


  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jster
    I have used minor to major, just not relative minor to major.

    As you say, these things are devices. There aren't that many of them really. I'm pretty sure that there are more ways to cook chicken than change keys. I can buy a book of chicken recipes. Why not a book of key change recipes? And yes, I agree about the great songs. But when I'm writing, I need something right now to get me from one place to another. I have about a dozen or so of my own. All clichés of course. It is the other 100 or so that I would love to have quick access to. It wouldn't be that hard to organize them all. You have a key you are in, the key you want to go to, the chord you are on within the key, and perhaps the chord you want to go to within the target key. And maybe you could have two volumes. A melody note independent one, and a melody note dependent one. I'm pretty sure that there would be buyers for it. What serious songwriter wouldn't want a copy?
    have you ever looked into the Max Reger book on modulations? it's a little Dover book for under $10

    people have mixed feelings on Reger's music, but it's hard to deny that the man knew his way around harmony

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    Has any great Horn Player ever done a version of " Too High" - would make an awesome modern Jazz Tune - right ?
    I can hear it....
    Pat Martino did a good version with Charlie Hunter on a CD called 'All Sides Now'.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    one day I'll fly away
    in D
    yeah I love that B11 ... isn't that lovely !

  14. #13
    destinytot Guest

  15. #14
    destinytot Guest
    Another wonder

  16. #15
    destinytot Guest
    Love the harmony throughout this

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Think outside the box. Jazz musicians think how can I 'jazz' this or that but all you need it a pretty song. This would work. It's has a very nice bridge;



    Just play the song. Make it sing.

  18. #17
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Think outside the box. Jazz musicians think how can I 'jazz' this or that but all you need it a pretty song. This would work. It's has a very nice bridge;



    Just play the song. Make it sing.
    Yeah, man!

  19. #18
    destinytot Guest
    Phil Perry

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Phil Perry
    The first thing a leader of girl group told me was- I don't do the 'rolls' but if you want to learn I'll show you.
    A lot of people think they're good at it but aren't. He's good. Never heard of him. That other Anita song would work great.

  21. #20
    destinytot Guest
    Stevie on drums here

  22. #21
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    I might use this one. I need a few MOR tunes. I'm looking for easy tunes right now but nothing is ever that easy. Ghetto Life is easy but a guy singing it? I'd rather have a girl do it. I don't like to sing but I'll do a few tunes. I'd love to do those Anita tunes but that's a challenge vocally or instrumentally.
    You want real smooth jazz? Anita. Not this stuff people are doing now.
    I've prepared a set of '70s soul numbers and done several low-key gigs with an organ trio. We've never rehearsed, so I just try my best to put the notes in the right place - and defer to the organ player. People always dance, and I get everyone singing ("me... and...Mrs... Mrs Jones"), which is enough to get us more bookings. It's fun, but the volume and groove aren't right for me.

    The numbers that I'm most comfortable with are the one with slower grooves. I find they're a bit like bossa nova and samba; each song is real a gem, and there is greater variety and pace than it might appear from just looking at a set list.

    I don't know how long it's going to last, but I've got a new duo gig starting in January. It's at an up-market restaurant that targets tourists (light entertainment/easy listening during the meal, and then there's a DJ downstairs). It pays well enough to get the right keyboard player, and we're rehearsing all day next Monday (21st). I'll record a bit on my phone. If the gig works out, they'll let me add a bassist.

    Some of the songs I've prepared so far: BETCHA BY GOLLY, WOW; FOR THE LOVE OF YOU; COULD IT BE I’M FALLING IN LOVE; GOT TO BE THERE; LA-LA-LA MEANS (I LOVE YOU); LETTER PERFECT*; RAINBOW IN YOUR EYES*...
    *love early Al Jarreau

    And here's what I'm anxious to avoid:

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Cole Porter- master of the craft--Everytime We Say Goodbye:

    When you're near, there's such an air of spring about it,
    I can hear a lark somewhere, begin to sing about it,
    Theres no love song finer, but how strange the change
    from major to
    Minor,
    Everytime we say goodbye.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    And by the way Stevie's Songs in the Key of Life is a virtual encyclopedia of styles from the 40's-70's--gospel, RnB, rock, soul, fusion, big band, you name it it's there. My favorite SW album and one I still listen to all the time.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Phil Perry
    There's nothing like R&B in a club setting. There's all different kinds too. He's showing off but in a good way. Did you read his bio? He was supposed to be at the Twin Towers for a gig on 9/11. Damn.
    This was from 91' in LA I guess. We got a glimpse of trends first in San Diego on the west coast. Before LA. We didn't get into commercializing rap. I thought about it around 85' but I just thought about it. That's all.
    I didn't want to wind up some kind of rap-sideman and I didn't want to stay on a sinking ship that was R&B. I turned down offers for studio work with name people.
    So, it was over.
    I say what goes around comes around. Rap is the music of the middle class now, not R&B. I'm just glad I had an opportunity to play with a couple good bands back then. Some good memories.

  26. #25
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    There's nothing like R&B in a club setting. There's all different kinds too. He's showing off but in a good way. Did you read his bio? He was supposed to be at the Twin Towers for a gig on 9/11. Damn.
    This was from 91' in LA I guess. We got a glimpse of trends first in San Diego on the west coast. Before LA. We didn't get into commercializing rap. I thought about it around 85' but I just thought about it. That's all.
    I didn't want to wind up some kind of rap-sideman and I didn't want to stay on a sinking ship that was R&B. I turned down offers for studio work with name people.
    So, it was over.
    I say what goes around comes around. Rap is the music of the middle class now, not R&B. I'm just glad I had an opportunity to play with a couple good bands back then. Some good memories.
    Really learning from your posts, man - and I love the stories you share.

    (I don't dig competition, except with myself. I give it a wide berth - so I can give 100%. Then I deal with the consequences. And if competition gets in the way, I turn to the side.)

    But I think Phil Perry is superior in every way, in another league; there's Phil Perry, then there's everyone else.

    So what I'm learning is: the value of modes.

    Reg's recent posts have made me sit up, pay attention and engage fully with the idea behind the terminology of 'modal interchange' with reference books and a keyboard.

    Pretty simple really - but pretty damned cool. Lots of "Ah! So that's why..." explaining 'non-cliché' changes in endless contexts.

    But thanks to you, I'm really paying attention to Cameo - the lyrics ("all you sucker DJs" is powerful medicine), the groove, and the changes. And today I've been listening closely to the sax on Candy. Simple changes, but great modal lesson right there.