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I.e. the whole "Kind of Blue" thing. It makes for a lot of odd chord names. Is there a different, simpler, better nomenclature?
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06-02-2010 05:31 PM
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The So What chord, eg the first one here, is just E-A-D-G-B, Emin11. Not so bad.
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In my classical theory class we would mark quartal harmony thus:
BQ4, which is a chord built on perfect 4ths above a B note or
GQ5, which is a chord built on perfect 5ths above a G note.
The problem with calling that first chord that BD showed an Em11 is that an Em11 can be spelled in thirds and has a different sound than the quartal chords that BD wrote.
That first chord is actually a BQ4 in first inversion, i.e. move that high B down a couple octaves and you'll get all 4ths (the E A D G B to me isn't a 'perfect' quartal chord because of the 3rd on top). Yes confusing, the system is certainly not perfect. Also there is no indication with the chord symbol of how many 4ths (or 5ths) you are stacking.
BTW you can restack a quartal chord to make it a quintal chord. BD's chord could be repelled from E A D G B to G D A E B to make it a GQ5.
Also note that quartal and quintal chords are built off the penatonic scale, useful when considering your improvisation options. That first chord BD listed has every note of the E minor penatonic scale.Last edited by fep; 06-02-2010 at 08:05 PM.
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Just make a note on score or chart where you want voicings in fourths(4ths) and lead note(s). Any jazz player would know what your referencing. I sometimes give sample voicings at end of charts or at beginning of parts. It's a pretty standard sound from 60's etc... If you want specific voicings through out at tune... write them out... we read. Most of the time good players can play what your trying to write, usually much better. Best Reg
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I've seen it as the bass note (say A) followed by 4 (A4). I've also seen the RB use 7sus4 to designate it as well
Regarding the inversions, 3 note 4ths are usually called 4/2 or 2/4
GCF (root)
CFG (42)
FGC (24)
There is a ton of stuff you can do here. the most usefull to me is to add the octave and get a 4 note inversion. I could write for days about the posibilites etc but I'll keep it brief
CFGC
Then put a different bass note underneath (Like Eb)
Weather Report used this chord a lot on their Heavy Weather album but I can't remember the name of the specific tune where the intro is the above voicing moving around with a different bass note
For quintal I'll give you one of the chords that I like that I came up with by playing a 4 note quintal and adding an extra note (like what they do in So What. Quartal with a 3rd on top)
[chord]
Ab Eb Bb F G ( 1 5 9 13 7 ) or Fmi11/Ab or.....
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||---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
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Check out Tom Floyd's, Quartal Harmony and Voicings for Guitar published by Mel Bay.
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Interesting! I'll write BQ4Inv1 in my sheets for So What! from now on. That will make an interesting discussion
Originally Posted by fep
Why the Q? Intervals of 6ths and 7ths are not relevant?
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Just like you stck 3rds to get triads, etc, you can stack any interval , such as 4ths and 5ths to get different types of harmony. Originally Posted by gersdal
Interesting! I'll write BQ4Inv1 in my sheets for So What! from now on. That will make an interesting discussion
Why the Q? Intervals of 6ths and 7ths are not relevant?
Stacking seconds gives you tone clusters. 3 note clusters are very do-able on guitar, 4 notes get tricky. There are not so many 5 note clusters and of course , require some open strings
A B C D E = X 12 10 7 0 0
You can change the C to C# as well as the D to D#
Stacking 6ths are really just inverted triads/seventh since the 6th interval is an inverted 3rd.
That leaves 7ths. You can get a 3 note chord C B A. If you have a good stretch and play hig up the neck you might be able to get another like F E D C. But that is still a big stretch.
You can also have compound octaves. (A Danny Gatton favorite) and then of course 9ths. ( C D E = 8 x12x x 12)
Again, tons of stuff to do with these. (Like run them through the scales to find all the possibilites)
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Beautifull stuff. How are these notated? Originally Posted by JohnW400
Great voicings. My question is really: Following fep's naming convention this chord should probably be called CQ9, and I'm ok with that. Still don't understand the Q, tho ... Originally Posted by JohnW400
Allan Holdsworth has a life worth of voicings to study in this line, and others.. Originally Posted by JohnW400
Thanks
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Hi Gersdal, Hows it going? Originally Posted by gersdal
The Q stands for Quartal or Quintal.
I don't think that Q4 is going to cut it for jazz charts, it's a classical thing, jazz guys might not know what it means. The way I'd notate a quartal chord is to write out the chord and write "Quartal" above it. At least everyone will understand that way.
The only other classical one that I can remember is "S" which stands for secundal... those are for chords built on seconds.
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If I want a chord voiced a specific way, I use the good old black dots and sticks on the chart.
otherwise, I call 'em as I see 'em. The so what chord is an E-11.
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Thanks. Originally Posted by fep
Interesting method of notation. I would only use it to throw the pianist of the stool. I've already tried, and it did work
. After a bit of laughter and other jokes, we agreed it was a good way of notating the chord and that we should never use it again .
I've seen notations like 2-4, 4-2 etc indicating the intervalls. A C 2-4 would then be C-D-G. Don't think this is standard notation, but a workable tool for one's own notations. A secundal voicing like the one JohnW wrote would then be notated A 2-1-2-2. The chord with ninth intervals would be C 9-9, I guess.
Even if I don't neccessarily plan to use it, it is always good to know if there are naming conventions for these type of chords.Last edited by gersdal; 06-03-2010 at 09:55 AM.
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I don't think I would ever use short hand for 2nd's , 5ths, 7th ect. I would write them out
Quartals however, can be related to some sort of tertial harmony. The G13 voiced G F B E (3x345x) has a quartal element to it. F B E A is an Fma7b5. So you would have to 'hear' it as quartal.
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If I saw Fma7b5 I would probably play F-E-A-B. Originally Posted by JohnW400
[CHORD]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
0|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-x-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-x-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
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||-x-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]
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A lot of keyboard players use A F B E ( 5 x 3 4 5 x).
some refer to quartals by how they stack up
ADG = P/P or perfect / perfect.
The other possibilities are A/P (FBE) and Augmented/Perfect or P/A. (CFB)
The A/P is a "magic" chord and works for everything. You should try it with different bass notes and see what you come up with
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Yow! Thanks for all the replies.
Being a rank beginner, I had something very basic in mind. If you take the So What type chord, three fourths and a major third, you can use that as a pattern to harmonize a scale or a mode. Then you can name a chord with its position on the scale or mode. E.g. "the So What V chord of the D minor scale."
Still cumbersome but avoids amibiguity, or does it?
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When you see "G7" you have the flexibility to choose the details -- the inversion, what notes to omit or double, where on the neck to play it, extensions (9th etc...) alterations, substitution, you get the idea.
Are you looking for the same flexibility with quartal harmony, or would you be happier with "X77787"?
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What I'm trying to do for the present is to (1) invent arpeggios for the individual quartal chords and (2) mix them with arpeggios for standard chords just to smash everything together and see what happens. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
This got started when I figured out how to play the melody of "Eleanor Rigby" using the So What chords in Dm.
x0556x x0778x x09910x x0556x x0223x etc.
Works well but I'm looking for better ways to handle the change to Bb and back down again. Passing chords, chromatic notes, etc.
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Not to change subject but by Fma7b5 do you mean Fma7#11, standard IV chord? Originally Posted by gersdal
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The #11 would be C#. In this chord it's Cb or B
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Hey John...Fmaj7 .... #11 is B chord tones.. F G A B C D E F... Fmaj Lydian or chord built on 4th degree of Cmaj. ...#11 and b5 are same note, Originally Posted by JohnW400
Best Reg
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Originally Posted by Reg
ooops Sorry,
The eyes are starting to go.
I saw sharp 11 and thought you wrote #5. Hence the C# commentary.
It's either my eyes playing tricks or old age or both.
And yes as you correctly point out, you could use this chord as F ma7#11
To redeem myself here's a nice ma7 #11 that has a natural 5 in it
[CHORD]
Ama7#11
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[/CHORD]
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