Learning all the triads (and other 3 note chords)...

[jazznylon]

Hello everyone I recently got back into standard tuning after my long adventure with major thirds tuning. It was fun but I'd like more of a challenge conceptually speaking. I already knew all the triads in my previous tuning but in standard tuning its something that I want to get under my fingers sometime eventually. Closed forms I can sort of (probably!) get by if I mentally base it from major thirds tuning.. like lowering the top note by a half step in string set G B E or lowering the top and middle note notes by a half step in string set D G B. However for spread voicings there is too much of a difference so I can't cheese my way in this one. I ordered the van eps harmonic mechanism volumes yesterday to see if I can finally nail the 3 note chords down since not being able to get a grasp of them was the reason I switched to a symmetrical tuning in the first place. How did you guys manage to tackle the humble 3 note chords?

[pamosmusic]

With triads, Goodrick cycles honestly.

But also some three note chords are more useful than others. Shells being the most useful to me by a lot.

[jazznylon]

With triads, Goodrick cycles honestly.

But also some three note chords are more useful than others. Shells being the most useful to me by a lot.

Goodrick cycles I see.. Speaking of shells I love the 'inversions' of them 371, 713. Very nice pianistic voicings. Though it may take me a while to get them down in standard.

[AllanAllen]

What worked for me was to pick a key, and write out the diatonic chords. Then I transposed on the guitar around the 12 keys.

[Liarspoker]

The Van Eps books are very dry.

The Goodrick Almanacs (available for free from the Resources page on the Modern Guitar Harmony website) have more interesting movement such as contrary motion.

Two other good, but advanced, books based on three-part harmony are Voice Motion by Johannes Haage and Generic Modality Compression by Mick Goodrick and Tim Miller.

[pamosmusic]

... Generic Modality Compression by Mick Goodrick and Tim Miller.

Have you written this one up?

I've been curious about it but don't know anyone who's used it.

[pamosmusic]

Goodrick cycles I see.. Speaking of shells I love the 'inversions' of them 371, 713. Very nice pianistic voicings. Though it may take me a while to get them down in standard.

I really like the Goodrick cycles because realistically I don’t think we use triads as “voicings” all that often.

More often G major to E minor (for example) is a way of realizing maybe a C major 7 with a little movement. That kind of thing.

So the Goodrick stuff covers all those movements if you do them.

[Liarspoker]

Have you written this one up?

I've been curious about it but don't know anyone who's used it.

I haven't yet but will try to do so this week.

Here is an audio example of myself with my son on bass.

It's great fun but you don't have to use this technique, or any thing in Voice Motion or the Almanacs, for a prolonged period of time. Just dipping in and out could be sufficient.

Edit: the tune is called Gelatinous Martian Creatures = GMC = Generic Modality Compression

[bako]

The Van Eps books are very prescriptive which is telegraphed by the 3 book title Harmonic Mechanisms.
He was very interested in not only playing chord scales but in presenting multiple fingering scenarios to build mechanical dexterity and versatility to respond individually to each chord sequence moment.

That said it does take a lot of concentration to apply all his specific fingerings. I was never able to go there but I did take it as inspiration to consider the mechanism aspect with greater attention.

[emanresu]

Learning all the triads took maybe 3 months hard work.. don't remember anymore.
But only the compact ones, 3 voices, not skipping a string.
I played them as scale, as pairs, jumped around, constructed melodies with them, etc.
Didn't have a massive objective, just did it because "doze darn stupid simple triads, how stupid must I be to not know them all".
Then did some ear training with them.
After all that, they have proven to be useful in some ways.

[Jimmy blue note]

I think of triads or any chord voicings as informed movement. They're ways of controlling sound and movement in a piece.
THe Goodrick triads do exactly that, they're ear training and studies in movement.

Take a finite set of voicings, I like spread triads, and learn the inversions. THen take a piece you like (I'd avoid Stella or All The Things at first) and learn the piece with your finite set. This will show you what a chord FEELS and SOUNDS like and why and when you use them. Become fluent with chords always in partnership with and actual piece of music.
As soon as you know it with one set of chords, switch them out so you can play that piece on a different part of the fingerboard using different inversions. I believe this is the best way to learn chords and how they function with each other and in harmony with each other.

Always strive to hear movement and train your ear not to take your hands for granted.

My opinion anyway

[rpjazzguitar]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

When the OP wrote that he knows "all the triads", I guess I need to know what that encompasses.

Major, minor, diminished, augmented. Every inversion? Every possible string set? Everywhere on the neck?

That's a lot of triads to learn by shape.

And, then, after you've learned them all, you have to know how to apply them. So, for example, there are a series of possible upper structure triads to use against a 7th chord (see, for example, Jazz Theory by Mark Levine for a clearer explanation).


Sounds like that's going to take some time and I'm guessing I left a lot out.

It occurs to me that I don't really know how other players use them. I haven't ever had a lesson focused on triads iirc and haven't read much about them except in Jazz Theory.

But, the OP asked how others do it. To the extent that I can claim to have done it, I know the notes in all 48 of the triads (the four types times 12 keys) and I know the fingerboard, so, if I'm looking for a triad, I can find it anywhere it lurks. Some require more thought than others.

As far as using triads, I rarely think about them even while I'm playing them. So, for example, I might play a C triad against Am. All I'm thinking is that I'm leaving the A for the bassist and the audience hears Am7. I know that an Abm triad against a G7 chord will give some nice sounding tensions, but I don't usually think that way.

I know a lot of 4 note grips and I'm not above omitting a note, typically if it's too high or low for the sound I'm trying to get.

If the chord is, say Cmaj7#5 I'm aware that there's an augmented triad in there, but all I think is "raise the fifth" of Cmaj7. Same if the chord is G7b13. Play Eb instead of D (I know -- both notes are in there, but if I'm thinking about the chord, I'll be focused more on the Eb).

Or I might comp through a complicated passage on three strings, picking out notes from the chord names on the chart, and playing triads but not thinking that way. And, I might have a 3 note cluster that isn't one of the 4 triad types.

If there is a standard way that triads are employed, please post or post a reference.

[pamosmusic]

And, then, after you've learned them all, you have to know how to apply them. So, for example, there are a series of possible upper structure triads to use against a 7th chord (see, for example, Jazz Theory by Mark Levine for a clearer explanation).

Oh this is a good point. I said above that the cycles are a great way to work on motion within a single chord. The upper structures are sort of what I meant … the way you can play a beautiful extended C major sound using D major and G major or something.

Levine book for sure. Also a nice overview on JGO:

Upper Structure Triads

[jazznylon]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

When the OP wrote that he knows "all the triads", I guess I need to know what that encompasses.

Major, minor, diminished, augmented. Every inversion? Every possible string set? Everywhere on the neck?

That's a lot of triads to learn by shape.

And, then, after you've learned them all, you have to know how to apply them. So, for example, there are a series of possible upper structure triads to use against a 7th chord (see, for example, Jazz Theory by Mark Levine for a clearer explanation).


Sounds like that's going to take some time and I'm guessing I left a lot out.

It occurs to me that I don't really know how other players use them. I haven't ever had a lesson focused on triads iirc and haven't read much about them except in Jazz Theory.

But, the OP asked how others do it. To the extent that I can claim to have done it, I know the notes in all 48 of the triads (the four types times 12 keys) and I know the fingerboard, so, if I'm looking for a triad, I can find it anywhere it lurks. Some require more thought than others.

Yes. By what I meant by 'know' is the shapes. Every string set and inversions. Though I don't know the note names like the back of my head for those 48 triads. It was easy to figure out the shapes in my previous tuning so then it just a matter of becoming more familar with them.

So I've been going through the van eps stuff today. At first I had to go real slow with playing the 1st inversion triads all over the neck but then I'm starting to pick up the pace reading through the exercises in different keys. So thats progress I suppose. The fingerings can be annoying (especially up the 12 fret) but I'm sure they're useful in some way

[AllanAllen]

Is the 11 really an avoid note? I feel like I use it all the time

Edit, this is in reply to the link Peter posted.

[Christian Miller]

Hello everyone I recently got back into standard tuning after my long adventure with major thirds tuning. It was fun but I'd like more of a challenge conceptually speaking. I already knew all the triads in my previous tuning but in standard tuning its something that I want to get under my fingers sometime eventually. Closed forms I can sort of (probably!) get by if I mentally base it from major thirds tuning.. like lowering the top note by a half step in string set G B E or lowering the top and middle note notes by a half step in string set D G B. However for spread voicings there is too much of a difference so I can't cheese my way in this one. I ordered the van eps harmonic mechanism volumes yesterday to see if I can finally nail the 3 note chords down since not being able to get a grasp of them was the reason I switched to a symmetrical tuning in the first place. How did you guys manage to tackle the humble 3 note chords?

What does ‘cheese’ mean in this context?

Idkr I just sort of learned them. Close, Open. Close is easy, Open you have alternative fingerings for a few of them.

And then what I call split, so for example x 2 x x 3 3

Tbh I tend to view everything intervallically now. I think that’s the way to travel. The inversions of a triad go 1 3 5, 1 3 6, 1 4 6

I’ve tended to find dim triads the most annoying to learn for some reason.


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[Christian Miller]

Oh Goodrick voice leading cycles are a good workout (and more then just that) as others have indicated. Cycle 6/3 good for learning, Cycle 2/7 a good workout.


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[Gearhead]

when it comes to improvising with triads, I found Tim Miller's lessons the best by far....

[PMB]

I’ve tended to find dim triads the most annoying to learn for some reason.

Both augmented and diminished traits are symmetrical in construction. The difference between them is that augmented triads are symmetrical around the octave. That greatly reduces the number of shapes and as a result, they are the easiest to get down. Alternatively, diminished triads unlike diminished 7th chords are only internally symmetrical. We're left with a greater number of shapes and more unwieldy stretches due to the distance between b5 and octave - the largest interval that occurs in any of the triads even if you include sus2 or sus4 triads.

[PMB]

I've posted these pages here before but it may help those who missed them first time around. These are the closed forms for the primary triads (major, minor, diminished and augmented). I've arranged them in a cycle of 4ths with each form hinged onto the next in an attempt to replicate pianistic thinking. This is in contrast to most charts where the triads are more isolated, moving up the neck rather than down as they cross each string set.