A question to native spekers of French

[Bop Head]

How would you translate transformations harmoniques (I read it in Philippe Baudoin's Jazz: mode d'emploi)? Does it simply mean changes? Or does it imply reharmonisation?

[RJVB]

I'm just a "functionally trilingual" speaker so all I can offer as help is to point out that you'd probably want to give a little bit more context.

I'm sure you already figured out that the term as written translates to "harmonic transformations"

[ragman1]

How would you translate transformations harmoniques (I read it in Philippe Baudoin's Jazz: mode d'emploi)? Does it simply mean changes? Or does it imply reharmonisation?

As RJVB said, some context would be useful.

I think it would probably depend on how Philippe Baudoin was using the word. Maybe you could show us the title of the chapter, or section, and the sentence or paragraph it occurs in.

'Transformation' can also mean conversion or just change. Applied to chords it might mean altering, substituting, or even reharming.

(edit)

I've found this. The phrase occurs in Chapter II where he's discussing jazz harmony. It might simply mean the way, say, a C major becomes a CM7, C6, or some other variation.

Libros * Jazz, mode d'emploi, vol. 1: Petite encyclopedie des donnees techniques de base * Baudoin, Philippe: Outre Mesure, Edition -978-2-907891-01-1 * El Argonauta. La libreria de la musica.

[Bop Head]

As RJVB said, some context would be useful.

I think it would probably depend on how Philippe Baudoin was using the word. Maybe you could show us the title of the chapter, or section, and the sentence or paragraph it occurs in.

'Transformation' can also mean conversion or just change. Applied to chords it might mean altering, substituting, or even reharming.

(edit)

I've found this. The phrase occurs in Chapter II where he's discussing jazz harmony. It might simply mean the way, say, a C major becomes a CM7, C6, or some other variation.

Libros * Jazz, mode d'emploi, vol. 1: Petite encyclopedie des donnees techniques de base * Baudoin, Philippe: Outre Mesure, Edition -978-2-907891-01-1 * El Argonauta. La libreria de la musica.

FYI I am speaking and reading French fluently but I am not sure about this specific term. Linking to a table of contents and then starting wild guessing is not very helpful.

The book is floating around the web as PDF but I do not want to link here to a pirated scan of a still alive author. I was hoping that a native speaker [sic] of French owns the book and can help me out. I am not looking for "might mean". "Might mean" is already implied in my original question.

EDIT: And it is not totally clear in the context. Otherwise I would not have had to ask. Googling gave me the term in the context of classical music and Chopin but that did not help me much either.

[ragman1]

I've seen the pdf. Transformations just means variations, alterations and/or substitutions.

As I thought, he's using the word idiosyncratically. Or 'artistically' if you prefer. By playing FM7 - F6 as Am7 - Dm7 you have 'transformed' it. It's not a technical term.

Attachment 108825

That's all, different ways of playing the initial sequence.

There's nothing new here, you know, just the same jazz knowledge we already know.

[Bop Head]

I've seen the pdf. Transformations just means variations, alterations and/or substitutions.

As I thought, he's using the word idiosyncratically. Or 'artistically' if you prefer. By playing FM7 - F6 as Am7 - Dm7 you have 'transformed' it. It's not a technical term.

Attachment 108825

That's all, different ways of playing the initial sequence.

There's nothing new here, you know, just the same jazz knowledge we already know.

You actually answered my question, my bad for not properly reading. Thank you.

Regarding "the same jazz knowledge we already know": I have rarely ever seen that knowledge presented in such a systematic and logical way. And I have looked into a lot of books in the past 35 years.

Have you looked at the following chapter with the typical progressions? Those are the 20 something progressions you have to know that Hal Galper and Bruce Forman talk about. If you are able to hear those (I mean hear and play by ear) you can play the most part of the repertoire. In this regard the book beats Coker, Cork/Elliott and Ralph Patt's website by far. Highly recommended, I really like the logical way it is presented graphically (and I am not talking about the 90ies layout).

[ragman1]

Regarding "the same jazz knowledge we already know": I have rarely ever seen that knowledge presented in such a systematic and logical way. And I have looked into a lot of books in the past 35 years.

Yes, I agree, it's pretty thorough.

Have you looked at the following chapter with the typical progressions? Those are the 20 something progressions you have to know that Hal Galper and Bruce Forman talk about. If you are able to hear those (I mean hear and play by ear) you can play the most part of the repertoire. In this regard the book beats Coker, Cork/Elliott and Ralph Patt's website by far. Highly recommended, I really like the logical way it is presented graphically (and I am not talking about the 90ies layout).

I've looked at it briefly. To be honest, I've seen it before. Not all in one book perhaps, but certainly overall. I'm not saying I know everything there but most of it. I used to buy and study books but it was a phase that passed.

I think my thirst for unapplied knowledge has dwindled considerably. I don't think I've got much to apply it to nowadays. I rarely do tunes except when they appear on the forum and the changes are what they are. I can usually work out variations when I need them.

But it is an exhaustive book and Vol II is online as well.

One quick thing. I'm not trying to embarrass you because I wouldn't do that but it may be useful. When you say 'I am speaking fluent French' that's the wrong tense. It should be 'I speak fluent French'. Saying you speak French is a general statement rather than a description of what you're actually doing in the present. Unfortunately in French it's the same words for both - 'Je parle couramment le francais'. Also in German, I believe. I hope you're not offended. I don't know the technical name for the two tenses.

[Bop Head]

Yes, I agree, it's pretty thorough.



I've looked at it briefly. To be honest, I've seen it before. Not all in one book perhaps, but certainly overall. I'm not saying I know everything there but most of it. I used to buy and study books but it was a phase that passed.

I think my thirst for unapplied knowledge has dwindled considerably. I don't think I've got much to apply it to nowadays. I rarely do tunes except when they appear on the forum and the changes are what they are. I can usually work out variations when I need them.

But it is an exhaustive book and Vol II is online as well.

One quick thing. I'm not trying to embarrass you because I wouldn't do that but it may be useful. When you say 'I am speaking fluent French' that's the wrong tense. It should be 'I speak fluent French'. Saying you speak French is a general statement rather than a description of what you're actually doing in the present. I hope you're not offended. I don't know the technical name for the two tenses.

I am never offended by constructive feedback, be it music or a language that is not my first one. I consider myself a lifelong learner.

The terms are simple present and continuous present IIRC.

Damn, I finished school in 1992, that was 32 years ago ... Time is running.

[ragman1]

But your English is extremely good. We had this discussion before, you remember. I was amazed you'd never left Germany.