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This is in the context of having been asked to play a gig in a band, led by a saxophonist. The lineup is sax, vocalist on about half the tunes, bass, drums, myself and apparently a pianist, although he hasn't bothered to turn up for any of the rehearsals. He is one of those guys that can read anything the first time perfectly, so apparently he doesn't think it's necessary for him to be there.
How do you talk about your preferred role with the other people in the band? I have little to no interest in soloing over the band. I love comping; comping, in fact, is all I really want to do in most bands. I just want to be in the rhythm section. But when talking about this with horn players, it's like I am suddenly no longer speaking English to them. They don't remotely understand the notion that I don't want to take 10 choruses on Moment's Notice or anything else. The drummer gets it as he noted "if you got nothing to say on a tune, say nothing." That's where I'm at on most tunes: I got nothing to say as a soloist most of the time. But I sure love playing the chords. Has anybody had any luck communicating this idea to band leaders?Last edited by Cunamara; 02-11-2024 at 02:21 PM.
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02-11-2024 02:03 PM
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It makes sense a horn player doesn’t get it. Melody is all they do. Head, solo, stand there, yawn, announce “back to the head” 13 bars into my solo, play head.
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You just do it. What's the problem? If you're afraid to lose the gig then that's the risk you take. But at least you'll have been honest about it.
Originally Posted by Cunamara
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It seems to me that the leader is likely to expect that you'll want to solo. That doesn't mean he necessarily prefers it, but he may expect that the guitarist would be disappointed if he isn't asked to solo.
So, then there's a question of whether you're willing to solo if he insists on it. If you are, then you can just say "I don't care if I solo or not, in fact, I prefer comping". And see how he reacts.
If he insists on guitar solos and you don't want to do that, for whatever reason, then it may not be the gig for you.
With vocals, horn and piano, he's got plenty of solos available. Especially if the bassist is going to solo much.
One question that occurs to me is that with that lineup, why does he need guitar? Is he calling some rock tunes?
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Just keep comping and tell them you’re playing a chord solo (which a sax can’t do, so you’re adding value).
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And the pianist is the one with whom you most need to have this conversation. If he's been working with the leader, he can tell you what the leader likes. He'll also tell you how to approach chording and comping with him. If he has a heavy hand, you'll want to be light. If he plays the extensions he knows the sax and vocalist like, you'll want to stay simple and keep it within the octave (ie no 9ths or above, even as inside inversions). Originally Posted by Cunamara
Since the sax is the leader, he's your next contact of choice re the above, if the pianist is unreachable or uninterested (which would not bode well unless he's so good and so flexible that he'll give you room and follow your lead, which would be wonderful), ask the leader. Just don't assume anything - forewarned is forearmed.
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I would just tell them. I play in a band with a bass player who has a standing “no solos for me” instruction.
Now, how do you get the piano player to accommodate your desire to mostly comp?
Thats a different problem entirely.
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Great points. I’ve said “no solo” only to have everyone turn to me to solo…
I’m there I think because (1) they’re doing 3-4 bossas, and bossas are something I do well; (2) hard to rehearse the band when the pianist doesn’t come to rehearsal. Plus I’m pretty easy to work with and I always turn up for rehearsals.
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Just don’t solo when they turn to you. I’ve had people do that to me. One drummer thought I was pressuring him to solo because I kept nodding at him, I eventually had to shout “END THE SONG MAN” we all had a laugh about that. I love playing.
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The traditional signal for that is to raise a fist. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Universal symbol for “last time.” Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Do you stand by the hi hat or the ride? It’s hard for me to figure out when to raise my fretting hand standing by the ride. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I think I’m still playing too busy.
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I mean … honestly, my move is usually turn around so I’m facing the band and it’s remarkably stupidly obvious that I’m trying to get everyone’s attention and then mouth “last time” or point to my head if we’re going to the melody. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Yeah that’s pretty much my move. Lifting a fist is maybe more elegant. I was watching Frank Vignola’s stream and he just goes into the head again. I might try that too. The plow thru technique. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Typically a player looks at you when he's finishing his solo and expects you to be next. Or, the leader looks at you, or points.
If you don't want to solo, a quick shake of the head will make that clear.
Then, the band has to decide what's going to happen next.
If everybody has soloed (or made it clear that they won't), you can point at your head, or wait for the leader to do it.
If there are two people waiting to solo, then maybe you point at one of them, especially if the leader doesn't intervene. Or the leader hasn't been assigning the solos all night.
I'm aware that the raised fist means last time, but I usually see that with a closing vamp or open section in the chart.
Since some of this might be perceived as stepping on the leader's toes, some discussion may be warranted.
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I sense a disturbance in the very fabric of space and time, one that has brought to us a creature from the void of space who doesn't want to take a solo. It must be that, for such a thing could not happen in this world. The only way to repair this rift, oh mighty visitor from the galaxy of Cunamara, is to call a tune yourself and solo on it. The very fate of the universe rests on this. The tune you must call and solo on is "Out of Nowhere".
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...and he was named Freddie Green. Originally Posted by John A.
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As a leader, you learn to integrate hand gestures with playing. As a sideman, you learn to watch the leader (or vocalist) for cues, even while reading the chart, soloing etc. A quick finger point to the bridge of your nose means go to the bridge. A finger to the temple means go to the head. Raising your hand a bit with palm up means louder, lowering with palm down means quieter. Rotating a hand in a circle means speed up and moving it back & forth with palm down means slow down. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Key signatures are communicated with fingers, up for sharps and down for flats. Gb and F# require 2 hands. Pointing an index finger up means modulating up a half step - for a bigger modulation than that, use fingers for the new key. This is especially useful when a vocalist ends up in a different key from the one he/ she called or started. You run into this at jams and when "special guests" like the bride's mother insist on singing at the wedding party.
I play sitting down, and I have to position myself so at least one hand can be seen by everyone in the band when held up.
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As a guitarist in a band with several horns and mainly doing written arrangements I find that I'm very much doing rhythm. I like to 'have a go' at a solo and would like to do more but going into a solo from a long duration of rhythm work is very challenging and I miss having the guitar chords behind me - only then being backed by a Tuba!
When I was working in a gypsy style duo I was doing all the single note stuff. That was much easier.
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A little late to the party here, but I'd say it's time for a sit down, where you can explain what you bring to the table. The problem here is that piano player...with them not at rehearsal, there's a whole lot of room for the guitar to comp...but when they show up for the gig...
When you say comp, what kind of music are we talking here? Is it a Freddie Green rhythm guitar thing you like to do, or a more bop and after type of guitar comping? I also saw you do bossas, there you should be able to take a "lead comping" role, as the guitar is integral to that sound.
Communication is always the best route. I think if you show that you can do what you do well, the not soloing thing will be quickly forgotten...unless of course the band leader was really looking for that, then you're just not the right guy for the job and you have to gracefully bow out. It's ok to tell folks you're not the right person.
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I'm tolerated as a sit-in in a band with a lineup very much like Cunamara's, and like him I'm not a soloist but a rhythm/comping guy. My training (what there is of it that isn't just getting house-broke) comes out of swing/dance/standards playing, so finding a place in a band that straddles standards (often with a vocal) and an uptempo bop sensibility has been a challenge. I quickly figured out why there's little space for a rhythm guitarist in the bop environment--why guitarists came to play like horn players and were expected to take linear solos and produce pianistic comping gestures (while somehow staying out of the way of the actual pianist*).
To my ear, I'm excess to requirements on the fast bop repertory, and as much as I love Monk, I can't really find a place for my guitar in his compositions. So if I don't just sit out, I do something harmonically minimalist and try to fit in with the drummer. And even then, I have to watch out for the excellent and energetic pianist, who is quite capable of filling whatever space needs filling. It's been an education, part of which has been fairly tactful suggestions that I play less.
* Conversations with some of my teachers and mentors suggest that the secret might be intra-band familiarity with each other's styles and habits and the willingness of the keyboardist to not deploy all of that instrument's resources all the time--a kind of musical tact. In fact, I suspect that that kind of collegiality is part of any musically successful ensemble.Last edited by RLetson; 02-13-2024 at 04:38 PM.
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Just watch how much Peter sits and plays nothing here, where he's the featured guest. As far as I'm concerned, if there is a piano, you can't play less enough. Jazz is piano music and we are guests. Originally Posted by RLetson
Live From Emmet's Place Vol. 61 - Peter Bernstein - YouTube
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On the other hand, the lineups of Nat Cole's, Oscar Peterson's, Diana Krall's, or John Pizzarelli's groups. Of course, those are drummerless trios, but still.
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In a class, I have had a world class pianist tell me that I wasn't leaving room for him to do anything, comping-wise.
In other words, it's possible to fill up the space so completely that even an absolute expert can't figure out some way to contribute.
I have also had another world class player say that in Brazil it's possible to have as many as four comping instruments playing together and staying out of each other's way.
A pianist who is so busy there's no easy way to contribute is not unusual. If he's busy and playing unpredictable "stick and jab" comping, it's even harder.
As far as what to do about it, that depends heavily on the musical style. In older swing, Freddie Green is an option. Two string "Charleston" is another. Some pianists will take turns, although I always find that sonically jagged.
In straight eighth groove music, there are half or whole note anticipations, backbeats, all upbeats, etc etc.
What these things have in common is that they're predictable and kind of repetitive. If the pianist is busy and unpredicatable, then the guitar has to be the opposite, unless the guitarist is extremely clever and can somehow transcend it (I can't).
If the pianist is both skilled and generous, you start sparse and add in what he will allow. If it's groove based, listen for one instrument playing pulse and the other, ornamentation.
Some guitaristis are strong enough compers that the pianist is likely to fall in line. Those guys don't need my advice.
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This stuff works out differently when I'm a bassist than when I'm a guitarist.
The jazz cliche is that when the bassist solos -- in a cliche, that would be once per set -- every player must become whisper-quiet.
That's the perfect thing for some people but I am not usually one of them.
I'm straightforward: "I have been providing you with musical accompaniment and energy all through this tune / set / night. Now it's your turn to do that for me. There are many ways to separate intensity from volume and if you feel that it is most musical for you to play softly right now I respect that. But at whatever volume, bring your full range of intensity to your accompaniment of my bass solo. In short words, 'Do not hang me out to dry.' "
@Cunamara, y'know, you could take this band as a challenge to work on aspects of soloing that you enjoy. For example, you might find that you like trading fours with the saxophonist. Just a thought . . .
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