Difference between a major chord and major 7 chord?

[Christian Miller]

I get the impression that some think a maj7 chord is just a jazz chord

Who? People in internet gear videos? (Definitely haha)

of course there is no such thing as a jazz chord. What you don’t find in Bach you will find in C20 repertoire.

What there is is a jazz way of hearing chords and applying them. The grammar is different. that Maj7#5 chord in a baroque piece is going to resolve, right?

If you go back through the history of jazz you tend to get major sevenths articulated in the melody but not the accompaniment - as early as the 1920s.

The sound is not heard as dissonant as it is in common practice harmony. But this seems to me often to be more like layering a minor chord on a major chord - Am on F (Blues for Alice or Struttin with some Barbeque) or Gm on Eb (Misty) say. I suspect this is the genesis of the maj7 chord sound as we understand it in jazz.

later on accompanying chords started to reflect the melody of the song in more detail (I want to say bill evans, but maybe Ahmad) and then you have Herbie playing with both hands together. That’s the basis of the way a lot of piano players play, they started with that.

I think this may have been the big impetus for chord scale thinking to become central and this modern emphasis on the chords reflecting the extensions suggested by the melody.

Before then, players were more relaxed about harmonic clashes between the chords and the melody for instance, sometimes even embracing them. Chord symbols were simple (look at the charts of the time for standards). The Barry harris school still views it in these terms.

[Bop Head]

it’s not. Teaching materials are simplified. I do it in my own videos tbf. It’s a thing we do when saying ‘here’s how it works over a ii V I’

The C major 7 is a dissonant choice for a C melody note for example. If you go to jazz school they tell you not to do that in voicings apparently (although modern players seem to like the sound.)

Context is important. For general, in doubt play C6. The melody calls the shots if you are making an arrangement of course.

I would say it’s important to at least hear the difference between C6/stock major and Cmaj7. They are actually quite different sounds. I don’t think it’s good to automatically sub in maj7 for all major chords…

Crap charts (like the old real book which is highly inconsistent) don’t help, but carefully edited ones like the Sher New Real Books are quite fastidious about the difference.

I should do a vid…

For a beginner, I would suggest C6 unless the melody is on the seventh.

In original vocal/piano sheet music and older fake books there is very often a major seventh chord resolving to a major sixth chord (if the melody allows).

[Christian Miller]

In original vocal/piano sheet music and older fake books there is very often a major seventh chord resolving to a major sixth chord (if the melody allows).

Yes, I mean this is where it gets a little confusing to the modern mindset. In pre war jazz, the accompaniment part was most often very vanilla. Pre war piano styles (and bop too actually) use by and large simple left hand harmonies. Guitar/banjo too.

So in terms of, orchestra rhythm guitar, say - we would look on the major 7th as being a dissonant chord. The 7-6 move is pretty standard embellishment, so yes you would resolve it. (Barry called that note a 'borrowed note' of course)

When I started playing earlier jazz I was told never to play a major seventh chord! Of course they can be played in that style provided you understand them as a dissonance. But it's good advice for modern players looking to play earlier stuff.

BUT in complete contrast, if you look at jazz melody in relation to chords, the use of the major seventh on a major chord is pretty frequent even in some songbook repertoire. After You've Gone does it on both the I and IV chords for instance.

And going further get 11ths, 9ths, major 7ths, all sorts in the melody of 'In a Sentimental Mood.' That doesn't mean you play these notes in your old school strumming of course. This 'rhythm section/frontline' distinction in harmonic practice is much less clear in modern jazz, but is still somewhat present in Bud Powell's playing for example. Barry Harris himself could be highly colouristic in his approach to harmony, but he still had a conceptual grounding in this earlier rhythm section/front line distinction.

OTOH some interesting 'middle ground.'

First - guitar solo chord melody playing, which was already a thing in the 1930s. You have to put those jazz notes into the voicings of the chords right?

Second - arranging for horns. Obviously this could get quite adventurous, especially with people like Ellington. You do sometimes hear colouristic ending chords even in quite early stuff, major 9ths and things. Again, I doubt the banjo/left hand piano would have reflected these chords in their playing.

We see this distinction between the harmony and melody somewhat preserved in Barry's teaching.

[A. Kingstone]

If Christian published a book on the development and connections of harmony through the ages, I'd buy it. Well read, good ears, concise writing.

[AllanAllen]

Major, minor and dominant chords all have 9, 11 and 13th extensions.

True, but I was going with a lean example. I thought if they're already confused by major and major 7, it's probably not a good idea to throw 100 other chords at them.

[Jim Soloway]

True, but I was going with a lean example. I thought if they're already confused by major and major 7, it's probably not a good idea to throw 100 other chords at them.

I lean towards the Joe Pass concept of chords. He often said that there are really only three types of chords: major, minor, and dominant. All the rest of it is just how we voice them and use them. Like most universal truths there are lots of exceptions but you could play an awful lot of music without ever leaving those three chord types.

As for the rest of what's being discussed, alterations, extensions etc. I really believe that the key to understanding almost all of it is learn the concept of stacking thirds from the major scale and realizing that every chord dervived by that method, by definition includes every note in the scale. We don't use all of them all the time but they're all there available for us to explore. It's something that anyone should be able to learn, at least conceptually in about an hour. You can then spend the rest of your life exploring the possibilities.

[AllanAllen]

Oh hey … I still get Christmas money from a handful of overly generous aunts, which means I buy a bunch of music books at the end of the year. Anyway … I got this one and you might like it.

Amazon.com

I only just got it but it’s pretty cool. Seems very practical.

I'm woodshedding mel bay this year. Got to get my reading up if I'm going to use that Galbraith comping book DJG recommended.

How is this presented? Staff, grip diagrams, tab? I don't see it in the description.

[AllanAllen]

I lean towards the Joe Pass concept of chords. He often said that there are really only three types of chords: major, minor, and dominant. All the rest of it is just how we voice them and use them. Like most universal truths there are lots of exceptions but you could play an awful lot of music without ever leaving those three chord types.

As for the rest of what's being discussed, alterations, extensions etc. I really believe that the key to understanding almost all of it is learn the concept of stacking thirds from the major scale and realizing that every chord dervived by that method, by definition includes every note in the scale. We don't use all of them all the time but they're all there available for us to explore. It's something that anyone should be able to learn, at least conceptually in about an hour. You can then spend the rest of your life exploring the possibilities.

The Joe Pass concept is my foundation to comping. I cut all those #11s and b13ths right off the lead sheet when someone else is soloing. My ears aren't yet good enough to immediately hear that stuff on the fly, so I cut out my muck.

[pamosmusic]

I'm woodshedding mel bay this year. Got to get my reading up if I'm going to use that Galbraith comping book DJG recommended.

How is this presented? Staff, grip diagrams, tab? I don't see it in the description.

Standard notation and chord symbols with tab underneath.

[Jim Soloway]

The Joe Pass concept is my foundation to comping. I cut all those #11s and b13ths right off the lead sheet when someone else is soloing. My ears aren't yet good enough to immediately hear that stuff on the fly, so I cut out my muck.

I have the advantage of playing exclusively solo guitar so I get to do the exact opposite. I love being able to explore all that stuff without having to worry about conflicting with anyone but myself.

[Christian Miller]

If Christian published a book on the development and connections of harmony through the ages, I'd buy it. Well read, good ears, concise writing.

Thanks! Maybe a thought for the future.

[rpjazzguitar]

The Joe Pass concept is my foundation to comping. I cut all those #11s and b13ths right off the lead sheet when someone else is soloing. My ears aren't yet good enough to immediately hear that stuff on the fly, so I cut out my muck.

A slight detour from the thread, but this issue has bothered me.

Suppose you have good enough ears to know exactly what notes, arp, scale, device or whatever the soloist is playing. Does that mean you're supposed to comp the same thing? If it's a ii V I in C and you hear a Db7 arp against the V chord, does that mean next chorus you should play a Db7? If you do, the solo goes from sounding hip to sounding as vanilla as can be. Or, if the soloist is outlining D7, does that mean you should never, ever play D9#11?

Yet, I'd often heard the dictum that you should be able to know, immediately. what the soloist is doing and somehow do the same thing.
But, in reality, if the soloist is sparse and vanilla, a comping choice might be more harmonically adventurous, within the limits of good taste. If the soloist is busy and half outside the harmony, you may want to comp vanilla to give him all the tensions and control over the resolutions.

[Christian Miller]

A slight detour from the thread, but this issue has bothered me.

Suppose you have good enough ears to know exactly what notes, arp, scale, device or whatever the soloist is playing. Does that mean you're supposed to comp the same thing? If it's a ii V I in C and you hear a Db7 arp against the V chord, does that mean next chorus you should play a Db7? If you do, the solo goes from sounding hip to sounding as vanilla as can be. Or, if the soloist is outlining D7, does that mean you should never, ever play D9#11?

I mean so much of this is context dependent. If your man plays without a break, you might as well not comp. They are playing it all already. If they do leave breaks, there's your opportunity to converse with the soloist.

Harmony is not a series of static moments in time. You can play quite a few passing chords if you know what you are doing. My favourite for this is Peter Bernstein. He does all this stuff and yet he's never in the way of the soloist. Dissonance actually helps drive the music along.. in this sense clashes are not be avoided, but harnessed.

A competent soloist does not need you to play the changes. So, you are responding to what they do.

My prerogative with this stuff is to try and be where the soloist is not. That's registral, rhythmic, dynamic, timbral and yes, harmonic. But in general if the soloist is playing a bunch of colour, you don't need to. The contribution becomes more rhythmic, the chords can stay simple.

OTOH if the soloist is playing something very simple the opportunity exists to do something colourful. It's not always the right thing to do, but it is an option.

Yet, I'd often heard the dictum that you should be able to know, immediately. what the soloist is doing and somehow do the same thing.

Well, that's what student jazzers do. They hear what you do and you play along with it - "look I heard the thing you did!".

Veteran jazzers hear what you do and don't. They'll be hearing the whole music.

Interaction is not about joining in.

But, in reality, if the soloist is sparse and vanilla, a comping choice is be more harmonically adventurous, within the limits of good taste. If the soloist is busy and half outside the harmony, you may want to comp vanilla to give him all the tensions and control over the resolutions.

Truth be told, more than half of comping is about playing the right rhythms

[pamosmusic]

If Christian published a book on the development and connections of harmony through the ages, I'd buy it. Well read, good ears, concise writing.

I have no idea where you got the “concise writing” part but otherwise I agree.

[AllanAllen]

My favourite for this is Peter Bernstein.

When Peter was on Emmett’s place I saw how much he sat there and it was like… “oh man, I’ve been trying too hard”

[Peter C]

Yes, I'm a newb to music theory and jazz guitar all together. Could someone explain (in basic terms) the difference between a major chord and major 7th chord? What do each look like on a chord chart? Thank you.

Poor guy.

Reading back, Rob's post (#5) was helpful and relevant to the (level of the) question, with hints that the maj7 may indeed be followed (or replaced) by a maj6, or some variation thereof. Good teacher, I would surmise. Fact is, a lot of people out there say "C maj.", then proceed quite nonchalantly to fret a Cmaj.7, and it definitely looks like a case of common practice. Not being a real jazzbo, this is just an observation.

The rest of the discussion here seems like a great way to scare off and confuse a noob, "tbf".

[rpjazzguitar]

I mean so much of this is context dependent. If your man plays without a break, you might as well not comp. They are playing it all already. If they do leave breaks, there's your opportunity to converse with the soloist.

Veteran jazzers hear what you do and don't. They'll be hearing the whole music.

Truth be told, more than half of comping is about playing the right rhythms and

If I tried to write instructions for comping it would be a long, useless list of ifs, ands and dont's.

So, I'll just write what I like to hear when I'm soloing.

1. Keep the groove grooving.

2. Don't push me in any direction I don't want to go.

Hmm.

I thought it would be longer when I started.

I might have added some nonsense about feeding interesting harmony, I suppose.

[Blkat]

So... someone answered the OP's questions before this went off piste, right?

[AllanAllen]

Poor guy.

Reading back, Rob's post (#5) was helpful and relevant to the (level of the) question, with hints that the maj7 may indeed be followed (or replaced) by a maj6, or some variation thereof. Good teacher, I would surmise. Fact is, a lot of people out there say "C maj.", then proceed quite nonchalantly to fret a Cmaj.7, and it definitely looks like a case of common practice. Not being a real jazzbo, this is just an observation.

The rest of the discussion here seems like a great way to scare off and confuse a noob, "tbf".

Rob is a top tier forum member.

A for the last bit about scaring off and confusing a noob. This is the way.

[pamosmusic]

Rob is a top tier forum member.

A for the last bit about scaring off and confusing a noob. This is the way.

Look. Speaking for myself, I make it a point to post on threads only *after* they’ve devolved into pointless, unhelpful theoretical debates.

[AllanAllen]

Look. Speaking for myself, I make it a point to post on threads only *after* they’ve devolved into pointless, unhelpful theoretical debates.

That’s why you aren’t top tier.

[pamosmusic]

That’s why you aren’t top tier.

Im happy if I’m 60th percentile

[Christian Miller]

I have no idea where you got the “concise writing” part but otherwise I agree.

would you believe I often edit my posts to trim them down a bit…

[pamosmusic]

would you believe I often edit my posts to trim them down a bit…

I would believe that, yes.

[James W]

Well, that's what student jazzers do. They hear what you do and you play along with it - "look I heard the thing you did!".

Veteran jazzers hear what you do and don't. They'll be hearing the whole music.

Interaction is not about joining in.

You say this, but one of my favourite things at the moment in music is John McLaughlin copying Keith Jarrett on 'Funky Tonk'. I guess McLaughlin at the time was not a veteran, but whether he was or not is besides the point. The point is the music is incredibly awesome.

It starts happening at around 3:35 -