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He guys. Watching YouTube tutorials I see many classify the shell chords saying they are not "real" jazz chords due to no 5th. Or extensions. Will adding the 5th and/or extensions to shell chords make them "real" jazz chords? Or will they simply just be chords still living in the shell family?
And with "real" jazz chords, I suspect the YouTube instructors mean chords as drop voicings, quartals etc?
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10-22-2023 10:26 PM
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Jazz chords often have 5ths - altered fifths, which are often enharmonically disguised for theory purposes as altered extensions (b13, #11).
Originally Posted by jazzpazz
Perfect fifths are rare in jazz chords because harmonically they tend not to add anything, kind of sound bloated, and risk potential clash with extensions or their alterations. In jazz the perfect fifth is the first tone to be omitted from a "full chord".
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"Shell chord" has a definition that most players are likely to accept. Originally Posted by jazzpazz
"Real Jazz chord" is not so clear. If you have 1 3 7 in your shell and you add the fifth, I'd say you end up with a "four note voicing".
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I've heard Jim Hall play plenty of shell voicings with Sonny Rollins, Art Farmer and Bill Evans, so I think it's ok not to take a YouTuber's opinion too seriously...
Adding another note on the B string (usually a 5th or a 9th) can certainly add some more color to things. If you leave out the root, adding color/melody notes on the B and high E can offer even more possibility.
There's lots of tutorial video on YouTube, with varying degrees of accuracy and helpfulness. If you can find folk like Bruce Forman, Sheryl Bailey Jimmy Bruno etc that can clearly put their advice into practice, so much the better
Best wishes for your music!
PK
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Those are bad YouTube tutorials. Report them as “violent or repulsive content” or Freddie Green’s ghost will come do it for you. Originally Posted by jazzpazz
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You need to do the basic work.... 5ths do define harmonic references. Where the chord comes from or what it can imply...
Take each chord and add the three versions of the 5th.... then see what are the tonal references ... The very important 5th would be.... dom. chords. The V7 chord from Harmonic Minor has a natural 5th
Ebmin ... Harm Min The V7 chord... Bb7b9b13 has a natural 5th
The V7 chord from Melodic Min has a Nat 5th and a b13
The IV7 chord from MM also has a nat.5th with a #11
You can also get 4 V7 type of chords from Diminished... like on Wes's 4 on 6 turn around... the C-7 to F7 etc...
He used C-9 and the F7 chord is F7b9#9 #11 (13).. any HW dim has 4 dom7th chord.
And of course and dominate chord has the tritone tub... you can invert the tritone between the 3rd and b7th and get another Dom. Chord.
Any way I know I've posted all this BS... but take all the scales and build chords on each scale degree... you'll end up with the standard basic jazz chords to start from. Then you can start to learn how to use them.
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A jazz chord to say I love you Originally Posted by jazzpazz
a jazz chord to say how much I care…
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God almighty. A shell voicing by definition is a 3-note chord - root, 3rd and 7th, inverted or not.
If you add another note to it it's not a shell voicing any more.
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If it’s part of a melody you’re playing on top, sure.
You’re confused with “real”.
“Will adding the 5th and/or extensions to shell chords make them "real" jazz chords?”
Yes, shell just means stripping away those notes.
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There are no un-real chords. Any collection of notes is a chord. It's just that some work better than others :-)
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My brother studies classical singing as a hobby. He has taken a course (or courses?) in harmony from a more classical music perspective.
According to what he seems to have been taught, a C13 chord must have the notes C, E, G, Bb, D, F* and A and if any of these notes are missing, it is not a C13 chord.
If I would play E, G and Bb on that chord, in his world view, I am not playing a C dominant chord. In his view I'm playing a E diminished triad.
In my view the notes I play do indeed happen to make a E diminished triad but I am using it as a C dominant chord.
A bit like if you fold a sheet of paper and use it as a funnel. My brother might say that the sheet of paper is the music class homework he asked me to review and comment on, but I am using it to pour liquid into a flask, so in my view that sheet of paper is a funnel.
(and that's how I teach my brother valuable music lessons!).
If i see a Gm9, C13 in a chord sheet I might play only Bb and F on the Gm9 and then move the F down a semitone to E and only play that E note on the C13 chord. So it's just an interval followed by a single note.
Am I playing "real" Gm9 and C13 chords? Does it matter? Am I playing "real" jazz? (Is Laufey jazz?)
In general 5ths are very optional in jazz. You can communicate the harmony of a song without them, but you can also use them for nice voice leading or inner voice movement.
You don't have to play all the notes that are "supposed" to be in each chord.
You also don't even have to play all the chords written in a chord sheet. (You can rest for one or several bars It will often serve the music better than playing what's written in a sheet.)
You can simplify chords or complicate them, replace them, add chords that aren't written or omit chords that are written (by playing the chord written before or after it for longer)
(* If you're playing jazz and come across a C13 chord, I'd say don't play the F (11th) unless you are convinced that you want it. the D (9th) is usually an option).
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You'd be playing much more real jazz than if you studiously played every change with full six-string chords!Am I playing "real" jazz?
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That wasn’t really question. Though I suppose the question is kind of silly. Originally Posted by Reg
But it’s worth remembering the utility of simple shell voicings. They’re super easy to play and give you just the essentials for hearing any chord progression … functional voice-leading and root movement. Adding fifths makes them harder to play, makes the voice-leading more complicated, and disrupts the root motion (because in fourths progressions, the root and fifth change places).
So shells are not only real jazz chords, a lot of the time they’re the clearest representation of what’s going on in the tune at a basic level. Though obviously some tunes voice-lead differently (Monk comes to mind, 60s stuff where the harmonic function is more obscured, etc).
Anyway … again … I still find this to be a goofy question, but I’m also a shell voicing shill, so here I am.
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Yes the question is silly... but 90% of the material on this forum or on the net etc...is also. And the OP obviously either doesn't have any idea how to play jazz or in a jazz style .... or is just having fun.
But the question(s) of how to play jazz or in a jazz style are real and can be very difficult to understand etc...
Comping in jazz setting on guitar is very difficult. Most just don't ever really get it together. Shell voicings or simple 2 and 3 note voicings have their place. But generally just one small part of playing jazz.
In most tunes.... your going to play 100's of voicings. Even just comping for the head to be played a couple times, your going to use at least 100 voicings. Jazz isn't a practice and memorized a tune and play it over and over.
yes you memorize tunes.... generally the melody, Form with basic harmony etc... and then you create a version of the Tune.
I guess I was just using Jazzpazz's question to open the door to.... "what is comping" and what are the details of that. Which can't really even be approached without..... doing the basic work.
In general.... shell voicings imply vanilla. If they're set up harmonically before... They are more of an effect, like volume, dynamics and articulations. Yea I know there are the hip players who can harmonically layer them etc...
But in general... your playing simple bass lines.
Think of Hank Mobley's "Funk in Deep Freeze"... the 5 and 6th bars of the "A" section shells or even 2 note voicings work great with head , which is a rhythmical pedal note... "F"... Here's a vid... from Jazz Channel LA, not smokin but clean version.And yea Jeff Miley, who teaches at Los Angleles college of music is simple player but has covered for years.... I'm out of town for a couple days... when I get back on Wed. I'll post vid of this tune along with some others on new thread I started...
https://youtu.be/Q31P4qKCX10?si=F2j-ro9DwpFY4Sp8
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I'll never be able to hear that song the same, again. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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If you play all the white keys you get the notes of a full G13 chord, at least according to one version of the theory. Originally Posted by orri
It includes a C. That's a note that can trigger an argument. Mark Levine called it an "avoid" note, pointing out that a better name would be "handle with care" note.
If you're trying to play an uncomplicated dominant sound, that C can clutter it up by sounding like the tonic in the key of C when you're trying to play the dominant.
So, as a practical matter, a jazz player playing G13 probably doesn't want a C in it, but there is no easy name for the C-less G13 chord. Jazz players understand this.
The same argument applies to the scale. Why should G mixo have a C? The hexatonic (G mixo without the C) may make more sense. But, afaik, it isn't taught that way.
Obviously, pros and cons to either approach. And, it comes down to what it always comes down to, if it sounds good, it is good and the theory can come later.
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Im not answering specific people, just referring to their names to mark what im answering to.
Paul: Yes I know that basic theory. You did not awser anything?
rPass: I see, very interesting. Thanks for good answer!
Paul: Thanks for the tip, will look them up!
Pano: Reported
Reg: Why are you listening me basic theory? Are you unable to read the question?
Rag: Good you pray. Are you saying that adding that 5th its not in the shell chord family anymore? Elaborate on this, so there's no such thing as extended shell chords?
Ryan: I see, so no such thing as extended shell chord either?
Rag: Well, the YouTube guys must refer to something when they talk about "real"? I think you need this explained. The prefix real is short for the real deal. Which is an expression. And when we talk about the real deal jazz chords in general, we simply refer more sophisticated chords than the regular block chord. So yes, there are "real"chords
Orri: Interesting. Classical and jazz music theory is two different beast. Yes thanks I know how reharmonisation and chord substitution work. My question was towards specific guitar chords. Not general jazz theory
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Pano: This question isn’t silly at all. The only things this silly here is the answers I get.
Reg: You must read the question again.
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Lol. Originally Posted by jazzpazz
Pano: Reported
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Could you post one of the videos in questions so we could see this in context? Originally Posted by jazzpazz
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If you add the 5th it will sound like regular jazz chords.
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Rpass: When it stands g13 in the lead sheet. It means g7. And it's suggested to use color tone 13, if its a good lead its often coz the 13 sound is an integral sound of the song. The c is just tone 11, which is rarely used after 1940. It stands in my berklee book. The name for c less g13 is = g13. As that only means add 13.
Pano: Ive seen it in multiple videos, but found this as an example. He mentioned it thought the vid, but between 16:30-19 min
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Right, to me that sounds like he’s using “real” just to mean something more like “full” or “complete.” Not that shell voicings are somehow not true jazz chords. Originally Posted by jazzpazz
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Here a simple and objective answer. Originally Posted by jazzpazz
When you learn how to play cadences in a jazz style on piano.
When you see D- G7 C
You usually play something like that
D C E F A
G B E F A
C B D E G
If you play the 5th on the dominant it will sound weak like if something were missing.
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Pano: My question remains the same, just substituting "real" with "full" or "complete".
Lion: That progression is called a jazz cadence. You mention them in their root position, which we pianists would never play, we invert We pianists also use very commonly the 5(1-5) in the bass. Using the 5th will NOT make it sound weak. The unstable characteristic of dominant is the tritone between 3-7. If one want it more unstable one can just toss in (altered) colour tones. Dominant is the real kitchen sink of accepting pretty much every colortone.
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