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I never said shells were triads!
Originally Posted by ragman1
My point was that triads are a good foundation for learning more complex chords. Shell chords schmell chords
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10-27-2023 05:27 PM
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If one plans are to learn jazz guitar I would recommend one start with shell chords instead of triads, since for most jazz standards, chord voicings don't include the 5th (especially as the top-note). Like many others, I started by learning the 6th and 5th string triads and 4 note chords (1, 3, 5, 7). These became my go-to chord voicings, and I have spent most of my time since trying to break that habit making my go-to chords 3 or 4 note shell chords that have no 5th. Originally Posted by supersoul
So yea, triads are a good foundation for learning more complex chords, but I believe shell chords are a slightly better foundation for the chord voicings one will use when playing jazz standards.
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As far as terminology...
triads 135
- includes inversions?
shells 137, 136
- includes inversions?
What do you call three pitch chords made from extensions and/or their alterations? They are strictly triads (and diatonic) but not chord tones, definitely not shells, in fact the inverse of shells...
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I think we are including inversions. Originally Posted by pauln
When I play Bm7b5 instead of G9 I call it a substitution. Usually I don’t mentally name everything I play though. I work what’s close that has the sound I want usually I can get that with 2 notes and then I force a third
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Upper structures Originally Posted by pauln
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A bit of linguistic philosophy might highlight the inherent dangers in trying to define anything outside the 'hard sciences'. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Slight ambiguity is that 1 3 6 could be a three note chord (or inverted triad) or an incomplete four note sixth chord. Originally Posted by pauln
three voice harmony is philosophically challenging like that.
Tbh I think one of the limitations of thinking chordally is worrying about this sort of metaphysics. The notes that are in the music are the notes that are in the music…. Anything else is a story ….
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Philosophy and metaphysics, that's right.
To be or not to be, to believe or not to believe, these are shell chords and voicings.
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Chuck Wayne's system, as I understand it, was based on 4 note chords including the 5th.
I learned it years ago from Carl Barry. I don't recall any mention of triads.
And, for that matter, from Sid Margolis I learned "muted string chords" (Sid's term) which were also 4 notes chords with the 5th. Different from Chuck's in that Chuck's voicings used consecutive strings (all three possibilities) and Sid's skipped the A and high E strings.
Eventually, if you learn the fretboard and you learn the notes in the chords you use, you don't have to think about triads as a separate device. You just think about the notes you want.
I do like the idea, though, of being aware how a pianist thinks about simple things in each hand, combining to make something richer. Of course, that results in things that aren't easily playable on guitar (or not playable), but it may inform what you can play.
As far as the most efficient way to learn, hard to say. It could be a combination of learning the notes and learning the grips, for those situations in which things are going to fast to think about individual notes. But, being aware of upper structures is clearly helpful.
As always, whichever way you choose to go, there's a great player who didn't do it that way.
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"The notes that are in the music Originally Posted by Christian Miller
are the notes that are in the music"
is what I call
"how it goes" phenomenologically
and
not using "a story"
is what I call
"no named things".
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Oh I can name them fine - in terms of the intervals inthe chord. Assigning a function to the chord or see a three voice chord as an incomplete four voice chord is interpretative.
I don’t actually see shell voicings as incomplete versions of four voice seventh chords, for example, but rather four voice seventh chords as an expansion of three voice shells. We choose the notes we choose in the case of
D F C
D F B
C E B
C E A
To avoid voice leading problems, one elegant solution completes the the seventh chords,
(We don’t wantDm7 Dm6 Cmaj7 C6 because of parallel fifths. Dm7 G7/D Cmaj7 Fmaj7/C is a better solution in terms of counterpoint, which I find interesting.
Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7 Fmaj7/C is also a better solution as is
Dm7 Do7 Cmaj7 Am6/C)
Like so:
Last edited by Christian Miller; 11-02-2023 at 07:38 PM.
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More guitar friendly version
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