Where to go after shell voicings?

[jazzpazz]

Hey. Ive gotten good control of the shell voicings with roots on e and a string. Using them in comping and chord melody with great success. But im wondering what is sorta the next new level to go from here?

I know there's plenty to do with shell voicing, adding extensions, drop voicings etc. But I mean what is sorta the level 2 then?

Or does it all build just simply build on shell voicings? Inversions, extensions, drop voicings, rootless etc

[pamosmusic]

Hey. Ive gotten good control of the shell voicings with roots on e and a string. Using them in comping and chord melody with great success. But im wondering what is sorta the next new level to go from here?

I know there's plenty to do with shell voicing, adding extensions, drop voicings etc. But I mean what is sorta the level 2 then?

Or does it all build just simply build on shell voicings? Inversions, extensions, drop voicings, rootless etc

Getting rid of the roots and adding extensions. Lots of the voicings will be plausible with the root added back in, but even rootless, those are great voicings.

[AllanAllen]

Go out and play with someone. Keep working on stuff at home, but now that you think you have the basics, go play. Make mistakes and then practice fixing what you screwed up.

[Christian Miller]

5 x 5 5 3 x
x 5 4 5 4 x
3 x 4 4 5 x

for example

[pingu]

it’s also very useful to learn your chords off the D string

it’s very useful to practice
2516 progressions
as ‘sets’

start with any ii chord and find
the nearest V chord
(with the minimum finger moves)
the nearest I chord
and the nearest VI chord

and learn them as a usable ‘set’

[Reg]

Yea... 3rd and 4th string chords.

Then learn how to reflect or imply more complete harmonic pictures. Play Chord Patterns... like II V's or I VI II V's .

They change depending on where they're going, the Target.

D-7 G7 going to Cmaj. I different from D-7 G7 going To Cmin7

Then become aware of those Chord Patterns and the variations of them. Which imply different Targets.

Then start playing melodic lines with your top notes. Lead Lines.... There are different types of top note patterns. They can be like Melodies, Licks, groove lines, like blues lines. They become as important as the actual voicing because they imply the chord as well as the style.

I could go on...

[rpjazzguitar]

Hey. Ive gotten good control of the shell voicings with roots on e and a string. Using them in comping and chord melody with great success. But im wondering what is sorta the next new level to go from here?

I know there's plenty to do with shell voicing, adding extensions, drop voicings etc. But I mean what is sorta the level 2 then?

Or does it all build just simply build on shell voicings? Inversions, extensions, drop voicings, rootless etc

What is your goal? Any particular approach to jazz? Any particular player? Any particular style of song?

If, like many of us, it's to be a "well-rounded jazz player" (a lofty goal) and you've got your basic theory and shells down, then I'd suggest this.

Watch some of Reg's youtube videos where he shows how he comps specific tunes. Search youtube for Reg523. You can see and hear exactly what he does. Learn a few of those and then figure out how to generalize from there, assuming you want to go in that direction. That would involve understanding the substitutions, seeing the patterns and voice leading and figuring out how to apply them to other tunes. Also, getting the feel (right hand).

I think this may be a more efficient way to achieve the goal than spending months going over inversions before attacking songs. Later on, you may very well want to return to the basics, but by then, you'll have a better idea what you're trying to accomplish.

[A. Kingstone]

5 x 5 5 3 x
x 5 4 5 4 x
3 x 4 4 5 x

for example

Food for thought. Brown deep fried food but food nonetheless.

[Reg]

LOL.... what do you call...

5 x 5 5 5 7
x x 10 9 8 10
x x 10 12 12 12
x x 10 11 11 13
x x 10 11 11 10
x 11 10 10 11 11
x 10 9 9 10 10

[jazzpazz]

I see there's a lot of general advice here, which is useful. But I was asking concretely which chords I should learn now. As I know shell chords. I see there are so many kinds of chords, is it a goal to learn them all?

Or will my shell chords work good. And then I'll build future chords I'll learn (drop voicings, rootless, colour tones etc) on the shell chords I learn now?

I just want to comp sophisticated jazz and do chord melody.

Or are you guys saying there's no system in the madness? Shell chords is a pretty neat system

[pamosmusic]

I see there's a lot of general advice here, which is useful. But I was asking concretely which chords I should learn now. As I know shell chords. I see there are so many kinds of chords, is it a goal to learn them all?

Or will my shell chords work good. And then I'll build future chords I'll learn (drop voicings, rootless, colour tones etc) on the shell chords I learn now?

I just want to comp sophisticated jazz and do chord melody.

Or are you guys saying there's no system in the madness? Shell chords is a pretty neat system

How many voicings does a jazz pianist know?

Obviously that’s a silly question because a jazz pianist knows loads of voicings and everyone combines them differently and they’re not really thinking of static voicings moving to static voicings. Jazz guitar is the same.

For what it’s worth, Christian and I suggested taking the shell voicings you have and modifying them to make more extended sounds happen. So I’d say that’s the “next step.” But after that, you have to sort through things and think about what you like and don’t like.

You should also probably learn scales on the guitar if you don’t know them already. Learning them across single strings and in position. That’s pretty important stuff for the harmony too.

[AllanAllen]

I just want to comp sophisticated jazz and do chord melody.

This is like... at least a 5 year goal. It's a good goal to have but, managing expectations is important. Along with the scales Peter mentioned, are you working through songs yet? I can't keep you separated in my mind from JazzNylon and JazzIsGood since you have basically the same username when I glance at it.

If you have a rough handle on scales and shell grips, and can read from already knowing how to play piano (that's you right? The new guy who's going from piano to guitar). If you can do those three, get out a realbook, pick a tune and start trying things out. Hit a chord on beat 1 with the melody on top.

As far as comping, Reg told you what to do. But if you want to spend an hour on youtube, this video is cool.

There's no shortage of videos, books and subscriptions we can throw at you, but in the end you need to pick up the guitar and suck at it until you get better. Also, since you can play piano, just record some good piano comping and then try to copy that with your guitar. Trial and error.

You should also post videos of what you are doing, then you can get much better advice than what you're getting now. If you're scared of random people watching them, you can set youtube videos to "anyone with a link can view" and it won't show up when people search "Blue Bossa Comping" on youtube, but you can share it here.

I see there's a lot of general advice here, which is useful. But I was asking concretely which chords I should learn now.

Learn the chords you need to play the song you are playing. Learning all the chords is a fools errand, you only need like 3 grips to start playing music, then you shimmy them around and walk from one to the next.

[rpjazzguitar]

Start with xx3433, that's a G7. Then alter one or two notes at a time to get Gm7 Gm6 Gmaj7 Gminmaj7 G7b5 G13 G7b13 G7b9 G7b9b13 etc.

Then move xx3433 up -- each note goes to the next note in G7 on the same string.
That gets you to xx5767. And do all the alterations again.

There are two more places further up the neck.

Then do that on the inside 4 strings starting with x2304x. Same drill.

And, finally, the lower 4, although you could live without most of those.

When you're done you'll know a lot of chords, and, more important, you'll be able to get any note you want on top of the chord -- try to finger them with barres when you can to leave your pinkie available to get other notes.

This is from Chuck Wayne via Carl Barry, many years ago.

[jazzpazz]

Pano: I know them all pretty much. Especially the once I use. That's coz on piano you can't really double it. While on guitar one has multiple choices (if im not mistaken) So shell chords will be my foundation which I will build further on in jazz? And yes I do scales, but now I asking about chords.

allen: Yes I have a goal, dosent matter how long time it takes. I can read well, and im already now playing chord melody straight from real book with no problems. I was more wondering about the chordal system, if there are such a thing.

[frabarmus]

You might want to check out this course... "takes you by the hand", step after step, starting with guide tones all the way to rich, extended chords in a very rational, intelligent, gradual way (imo).

[pamosmusic]

Pano: I know them all pretty much. Especially the once I use. That's coz on piano you can't really double it. While on guitar one has multiple choices (if im not mistaken) So shell chords will be my foundation which I will build further on in jazz? And yes I do scales, but now I asking about chords.

I don’t know if anyone would argue this, but level of difficulty, easiest to hardest:

Shell voicings
Rootless shells with an upper note
Triads and inversions
Spread triad inversions
Drop 3 inversions
Drop 2 inversions

And I know you’re thinking about chords, but scales are important for comping too. It’s easier to find chords on guitar than it is on piano because there are these very visual shapes that are extremely easily transposed, but it’s really difficult to make those guitar voicings musical. That’s because once you have a chord on piano, it’s pretty obvious where the inner voices can move, or how to trade a note for a more colorful one because you’re just pulling notes from a tonality that is very visible on the keyboard. On guitar, the scale and chord look like very separate things, as demonstrated by your reaction to my asking about scales. It’s really hard to find that liquid sounding inner movement on guitar because it’s not obvious how to access that from looking at the chord shape.

So with any one of those voicings I mentioned above you could also play:

Fingerstyle in dozens of ways
Suspensions in either direction on any note.
Borrowed notes with any note.
Suspension or borrowed any combination of multiple notes.
Diatonic neighbor chords.
Side-slipping.
Diminished approach chords.
And on and on.

So it might seem to you like people are being dense. But you say you want to play “sophisticated jazz.”

Well … what does sophisticated jazz chording sound like to you? That will determine where you go next.

[jazzpazz]

I don’t know if anyone would argue this, but level of difficulty, easiest to hardest:

Shell voicings
Rootless shells with an upper note
Triads and inversions
Spread triad inversions
Drop 3 inversions
Drop 2 inversions

And I know you’re thinking about chords, but scales are important for comping too. It’s easier to find chords on guitar than it is on piano because there are these very visual shapes that are extremely easily transposed, but it’s really difficult to make those guitar voicings musical. That’s because once you have a chord on piano, it’s pretty obvious where the inner voices can move, or how to trade a note for a more colorful one because you’re just pulling notes from a tonality that is very visible on the keyboard. On guitar, the scale and chord look like very separate things, as demonstrated by your reaction to my asking about scales. It’s really hard to find that liquid sounding inner movement on guitar because it’s not obvious how to access that from looking at the chord shape.

So with any one of those voicings I mentioned above you could also play:

Fingerstyle in dozens of ways
Suspensions in either direction on any note.
Borrowed notes with any note.
Suspension or borrowed any combination of multiple notes.
Diatonic neighbor chords.
Side-slipping.
Diminished approach chords.
And on and on.

So it might seem to you like people are being dense. But you say you want to play “sophisticated jazz.”

Well … what does sophisticated jazz chording sound like to you? That will determine where you go next.

Thanks very much, for a really great answer packed full of info! The first list you mention, shell voicings, rootless etc. Would you say that's pretty much all the way to treat a chord? Or most used ones? Im wondering as I want to know the whole complete picture. That's make it easier for me understanding


Sophisticated jazz, we pianists use that term when we refer to Bill Evans style of cocktail playing. Which for me would be would be the equivalent to Wes playing ballads. Sophisticated is ofcourse based on taste, and varies naturally.

[A. Kingstone]

LOL.... what do you call...

5 x 5 5 5 7
x x 10 9 8 10
x x 10 12 12 12
x x 10 11 11 13
x x 10 11 11 10
x 11 10 10 11 11
x 10 9 9 10 10

Fresh vegetables to keep us all regular.

Or. Stock in the pantry. Good for all meals.

[pamosmusic]

Thanks very much, for a really great answer packed full of info! The first list you mention, shell voicings, rootless etc. Would you say that's pretty much all the way to treat a chord? Or most used ones? Im wondering as I want to know the whole complete picture. That's make it easier for me understanding

No more than it would be the complete list for piano.

Quartals.
Drop 2 and 4
shells with two added notes
spread quartals
spread clusters.

there’s a thread floating around about the Goodchord book. That’s as close to exhaustive as it gets. Not sure it’s possible to get through it all. So you need to think about what you want to sound like.

[orri]

I feel a logical next step is to add notes on the 2nd string.

Continue with the 3rd and 7th (chord notes) on the 3rd and 4th strings and
when the root is on the 5th string you can add various 9 on the 2nd string and if the root is on the 6th string you can add 11, 5, 6/13 on the 2nd string.
If you know piano I assume you know which chord can take which 9,11,5,13/6?


If you can manage to work on it one step at a time like that, you can start by focusing on adding the notes on the 2nd string, and after a while start working on adding notes on the 1st string, but my gut feeling is that most people would learn and work on both at the same time?

[frankhond]

You might want to check out this course... "takes you by the hand", step after step, starting with guide tones all the way to rich, extended chords in a very rational, intelligent, gradual way (imo).

This one is quite good.

Now, once you checked that out and are bored of it and all the suggestions you got so far, and want to bite into monster chord chops for solo chord melody stuff... got to Barry Greene's lessons. I was subscribed for two years, really great but also very advanced stuff.

An example:

[AllanAllen]

I'm disappointed that Ragman's post is gone. He had a good point.

[Reg]

Fresh vegetables to keep us all regular.

Or. Stock in the pantry. Good for all meals.

LOL... ( hope that isn't a reference to shi*)


So Jazzpazz

The chordal system for chords or comping in a jazz style is... you don't only play with a single tonal reference.... Vanilla. Using shells, inversions etc.

Your using multiple harmonic tonal references. Think how many ways you can play a II V.... not shells,inversions, voicings or voice leading etc...... how many Tonal targets can you make that II V imply.

That is how you approach chords. Chords become Chord Patterns... through use of Subs, sub of subs etc... Modal diatonic functional subs. Common chord licks that imply styles. Blues chordal Licks.

So I hope your understanding.... that playing basic notated changes is not what your after. The basic notated chords and the melody are the starting point.... but part of playing in a Jazz style is becoming aware of how to expand those changes with multiple layers of harmonic references all going on at the same time. And not using embellishment as the approach for expanding.

Standard maj/min functional harmony. Major and Har. Min. and embellishment are like the big Vanilla sound and picture. You need to understand and be able to use that standard Reference... play in that style.

But need to expand those set of guidelines with use of Modal concepts, Blues harmonic concepts... and the Dorian and Melodic Min. relationships.

And learn how to use Function... with Subdominant movement. And with the use of modal concepts... or functional movement with use of notes as compared to intervals .... your language and tool box of what to play will expand.

1) learn chord patterns and how to alter those to imply different Tonal Targets, actually played or just implied.
2) learn how to use lead lines as another aspect of implying Chords or harmony. Which allows you to have multiple sets of chords... Chord Patterns going on at the same time.

Eventually this become simple... just like playing licks, or shells etc... It becomes a style of playing, a jazz style.

The other obvious things .... you need chops, comping chops. Like soloing with chords.
And you need rhythmic chops.

[pamosmusic]

I'm disappointed that Ragman's post is gone. He had a good point.

Oh weird. Yeah I might put it more delicately per usual … but if the OP is a little annoyed at the grab bag of random advice, then a little clip of their playing might go a long way toward focusing it.

[AllanAllen]

Oh weird. Yeah I might put it more delicately per usual … but if the OP is a little annoyed at the grab bag of random advice, then a little clip of their playing might go a long way toward focusing it.

I think we should all start taking OPs posts with a grain of salt. Going from how do I tune to playing chord melody from the realbook in 3 weeks is absurd.

Or they could post a video and I’ll eat Ragman’s hat.