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Originally Posted by eh6794-2.0
Personally I don't have any issue with threads getting derailed and taking new directions, but if someone creates a thread to ask about harmony or any other "less important" topic I don't see any urgency to redirect the attention to the single "most important" topic. There is enough space to cover multiple topics of varied importance.
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09-23-2020 06:18 AM
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In the section ‘chords, comping and chord progressions’? Fair
however the fact that there is no ‘feel, rhythm and swing’ section tells you all you need to know about JGO
Anyway it might be interesting to have a discussion about how different chord progressions ‘feel’; I often recognise progressions by ‘feel’ when learning tunes.
The IVm feels a certain way, the II7 another....
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I had a teacher that said he always associates the whole tone scale with water.
I on the other hand think the whole tone scale feels like a children's TV character having a wierd dream.
Considering all the "warm" and "woody" kind of vocabulary when discussing tone in the gear section I can imagine that a "Feel" section might perhaps include a lot of "water" and "wierd dreams" sort of vocabulary?
...but on the topic of Wave harmony I came to think of the intro on the Wave album (with the giraffe) where he plays G/D rather than G7 and he also uses a whole step movement instead of the more typical half step down movement (7th of II-7 to the 3rd in the V7).
First two bars he uses 5-7-3 voicing for the Dm7 and then he moves it up a whole step to 3-5-r of the G.
(either xxx211 to xxx433, or xx756x to xx978).
Then when the flute comes in he changes it to r-7-3-5 on the Dm7 and 5-5-r-3 on the G/D. (either xx0565 to xx0787, or 10,x,10,10,10,x to 10,x,12,12,12,x)
This whole step parallel movement definitely feels different than the half step down movement. It feels wavyLast edited by orri; 09-24-2020 at 11:44 AM.
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Originally Posted by orri
Considering all the "warm" and "woody" kind of vocabulary when discussing tone in the gear section I can imagine that a "Feel" section might perhaps include a lot of "water" and "wierd dreams" sort of vocabulary?
I often think of symmetrical scales as crystalline, and asymmetrical scales as more like shells or flowers, for instance.
...but on the topic of Wave harmony I came to think of the intro on the Wave album (with the giraffe) where he plays G/D rather than G7 and he also uses a whole step movement instead of the more typical half step down movement (7th of II-7 to the 3rd in the V7).
First two bars he uses 5-3-7 voicing for the Dm7 and then he moves it up a whole step to 3-5-r of the G.
(either xxx211 to xxx433, or xx756x to xx978).
Then when the flute comes in he changes it to r-7-3-5 on the Dm7 and 5-5-r-3 on the G/D. (either xx0565 to xx0787, or 10,x,10,10,10,x to 10,x,12,12,12,x)
This whole step parallel movement definitely feels different than the half step down movement. It feels wavy
The way the Real Book and jazz lead sheets reify everything into banal chord symbols has always distorted and misrepresented Brazilian music (it's also a problem for American jazz, too, but in jazz we are more used to dealing with a system that sucks, and it has in fact affected - perhaps stunted - the evolution of the music.
But - you do not want me to post the section from my last essay on how overly technicist jazz education reifies and distorts harmonic concepts lol)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
He was in fact talking about the whole tone scale in context with Dubussy.
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Originally Posted by orri
Last edited by eh6794-2.0; 09-23-2020 at 05:28 PM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
This topic scares a lot of people.
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Feel, rhythm and swing is EVERYTHING to me. You can play the most basic notes, but if you have that together you will sound great.
Like a great chef making a fantastic dish from simple ingredients.
I have none of that naturally, but I think I'm getting more of it as time goes on. Studying with a great drummer ATM.
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It's never really struck me before but if you think of the first chord, D6/9 as an inverted Bm11, the opening of Wave is basically an extended version of the distinctive turnaround that features in this month's practical standard, Out of Nowhere: Bm7-Bbo7-Am7-D7- Gmaj7. Of course, the 'D' root and cadential nature of Jobim's opening melody leads us to hear that progression as leading to a IV rather than I chord when it arrives at Gmaj7 but the relationship between the two may be worth a moment's reflection.
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Yeah that's an old school move. Sweet Lorraine springs to mind, that turnarond into IV.
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Ted Greene on Wave
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Reading all of the analysis above, my take on the Bb fully (not half) diminished figure in the second bar of "Wave" is THIS:
The "Real Book" chord written above the fully diminished melody line is merely the 4 notes of one of the three diminished sequences, with a leading tone a half step below, but the actual chord "harmonizing" them should be a 7th b9 chord a major third below ANY of the four offending notes: G, Bb, C#, E (I have an religious aversion to being enharmonically correct when, as here, the groupings "look" easier otherwise, but that's just me...)
So:
F#7b9 = G (the other notes in the F#7b9 chord are the Bb, the C# and the E; same idea for the A, C and Eb below...)
A7b9 = Bb
C7b9 = C#
Eb7b9 = E
Although any of them work, the first one (F#7b9) makes the most sense, because the progression is thus:
I 3 2 5
(D^7, F#7b9, E-7, A7).
---> like the first two chords in "All of Me" and many similar period tunes (I^7 to 37).
- Jeff Newton
Charlie Garnett - Franken Tele
Yesterday, 08:52 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos