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To explain: I know how to start with,say,a Cmaj7 and move it through the C scale. Each note moves to the next one in the scale, generating Dm7, Em7,etc. And, for applying these chords, you can do something as simple as Warren Nunes' approach, a tonic type and a dominant type and, within a type,they're all interchangeable.
Same thing for melodic minor, except, per Mark Levine, all the chords generated are interchangeable because there's no avoid note. So, you get Cmmaj7, Dsusb9, Emaj7#5, etc and you can use any one of them in place of any other. You can also start with a different chord than Cmmaj7, say a stack of fourths, and move that chord up the scale generating four different grips, all interchangeable. Or any other group of notes from the scale and move 'em on up.
Now to the point. What about using HW diminished? What chord(s) does it make sense to start with and what would be the guidelines for applying the resulting chords?
If you do it the usual way, with tertiary harmony, you just generate diminished chords. Makes sense because it's a symmetrical scale. But, what if you don't start with a diminished chord?
So, I tried it with GHW, starting on G7. Next chord is Ab Db E G which is a C#m triad with a G on top. Next is a Bb7, then an Em with a Bb on top.
I tried it starting with B D G Bb. G triad with a #9 or Gm/B. Minor triad over the major 3rd. This is a pretty out sound chord, but the pro I heard used in a simple standard to add spice (and it was very spicy sounding indeed). Brazilian fans may recognize it from Nego Maluco where the voicing is used heavily.
Next chord moving up, E/Db, then Bm/D. Interesting sounds but how to use them?
The goal is to find chords and ideas for chords and their application which will permit use of dissonant sounding chords which aren't so dissonant that they sound like clams.
I recently heard a top pro do this, it was astonishing and I thought he may have been using HW dim to generate some of it.
Thoughts?
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09-02-2023 01:43 PM
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There are a couple major and minor triads hiding in there too, which will give you half diminshed and dominant seventh chords built off the first degree of half whole (and up in minor thirds from there) try those. With the half diminshed you’ll alternate between that and a diminished major 7, with that last note technically being an eighth up by the scale degrees.
The dominant chord would be a fourth up from the root and then thirds after, so from the next degree you’d get
1 4 b6 7 … so C F Ab B … call that what you will.
Something tells me the first pairing would be more useful.
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Thanks for this but I confess that I don't think I'm understanding it.
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Using GHW, I can start with Ghalfdim G Bb Db F. Could be called Bbm/G
Next chord is Ab B D G. Is that what you're calling a diminished maj7? (I thought dim-maj7 was a full four note diminished chord plus a maj7. usually on top). I'd probably call it G/Ab.
Next up is Bb Db E Ab. Dbm/Bb. aka Bbhalfdim.
Next is B D F Bb, Bbmaj/B.
So, we're getting alternating minor with sixth in the bass and major with b9 in the bass. Bbm/G, G/Ab, Dbm/Bb, Bb/B.
To try to apply them, I tried each one as a sub for G7 in a ii V I in Cmaj. I thought they all worked, but didn't get the dissonance I was looking for. May have to voice them to get a b9 interval on top like G B D Ab.
Work in progress. Thanks for helping me think it through.
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Sounds like you’re understanding it fine! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I don’t have a lot of chops on the diminished scales honestly but they’re fun to think about. Since they’re symmetrical you can kind of do it two ways … first is look for functional chords like you’re doing (and the dim(maj7) is diminished triad with natural seventh) and see what happens. Or you can just stack intervals, though that’s much easier with two or three notes. Just go …. Starting note, up a third, up a fifth, and see what you get. Move it through the scale. Sort of like those quartal voicings you mentioned earlier
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Bbm/G, G/Ab, Dbm/Bb, Bb/B
I tried to think through the application a little further.
As subs for G7, or played over G7,
Bbm/G gives R #11 7 #9. G Db F Bb. The dissonance would occur if somebody played a B or maybe an A. But, this chord isn't that dissonant, since it's basically a Bbm7 or Gm7b5.
G/Ab gives the major triad plus b9 G B D Ab. This one has the potential for dissonance in that b9 interval between the G and the Ab.
And so on.
Dbm/Bb gives #11 13 b9 and #9
Bb/B gives 3 5 7 #9.
What I'm left thinking about is to find simple formulae for workable dissonance. Like for dominant chords get a b9 interval happening with the b9 on the top. Or maybe, have natural and b5 with the natural higher?
Still thinking ...
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It’s hard to comment on the sound you’re looking for without an example of that sound.
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GHW contains 6th chords, G6, Bb6, Db6, E6. It won't generate a maj7.
What does this imply about playing GHW against a tonic chord? Or chord substitutions?
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rpjazz..
your about to go on a "alice in wornderland" journey
tip: the two scales WH HW are the same scale..the HW starts on the 8 degree of the WH
C D Eb F Gb Ab A B
B C D Eb F Gb Ab A
I would suggest you find the chords embedded in the WH scale..hint: start with triads maj & min..then dom 7th..dom altered
remember its a symmetric scale so if you find a D maj triad..is there an F maj triad also ( Ab &B?)
you will get quite a few of them from the scale..the altered chords will give you alot of material to work with as they will have polytonal qualities
D7#9 = Ab13b5
now from there you can begin to connect other chords not in the scale to come up with some very hip sounding progressions and solo lines
you can be overwhelmed at all the possibilities ..go slow .. digest slowly
have fun..hope this helps
have fun
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This track from about 3:25 on includes some of the kinds of sounds I'm talking about. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The tune's changes are very simple as written. A lot of 3625, for example. But, the comping is much more adventurous. I haven't sat down to figure it out yet.
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Is there a general principle that relates one chord within the scale to all the others? Originally Posted by wolflen
That is, the way Mark Levine has all melodic minor chords being interchangeable. Or Warren Nunes divided major into 2 types, interchangeable within type?
In other words, what is the simplest possible way to think about this which will give me access to the sounds without having to do any actual work? Well, minimal, anyway. <g>
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well yes...all the chords are symmetrical..you can move between them via voice leading-which will create some interesting chords not in the scale Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
remember there are only 3 diminished scales C Db D
all of the inversions in the scales are just that...
without having to work at it...ahhh..don't I wish..sorry...if you want the pearls you have to dive deep..they dont come to the shore
the end result of all this is of course..using all three diminished scales to create some nice progressions with some strange intervallic jumps..a la steely dan
well the info is there should you want to explore it
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Diminished scales are symmetrical which already is a departure from the asymmetrical melodic minor scale. You are applying the same harmonic methodology that is often used with the common 7 note scales and wondering why the results are weird by comparison.
The nature of all symmetrical structures involves some cycle of repetition.
So G HW contains G7, Bb7, Db7 and E7. So what do these chords mean in relation to G7?
G7 - 1 3 5 b7
Bb7 - #9 5 b7 b9
Db7 - b5 b7 b9 3
E7 - 13 b9 3 5
How about AboMa7, BoMa7, DoMa7, FoMa7?
AboMa7 - b9 3 5 1
BoMa7 - 3 5 b7 #9
DoMa7 - 5 b7 b9 #11
FoMa7 - b7 b9 3 13
How about Gm7, Bbm7, C#m7, Em7?
Gm7 - 1 #9 5 b7
Bbm7 - #9 b5 b7 b9
C#m7 - #11 13 b9 3
Em7 - 13 1 3 5
How about Gm7b5, Bbm7b5, C#m7b5, Em7b5?
Gm7b5 - 1 #9 b5 b7
Bbm7b5 - #9 b5 13 b9
C#m7b5 - #11 13 1 3
Em7b5 - 13 1 #9 5
How about the individual notes?
G - 1
Ab - b9
Bb - #9/b3
B - 3
Db/C# - b5/#11
D - 5
E - 13
F - b7
Let's take a G7, Bb7, Db7, E7 and add one diminished note. Conceptualize everything in relation to G7.
G Ab B D F
G Bb B D F
G B C# D F
G B D E F
Bb B D F Ab
Bb C# D F Ab
Bb D E F Ab
Bb D F G Ab
Db D F Ab Cb
Db E F Ab Cb
Db F G Ab Cb
Db F Ab Bb Cb
E F G# B D
E G G# B D
E G# Bb B D
E G# B C# D
The basic game is do something with it and begin to internalize the sound.
If you can do this with minimal effort, please teach me how.
Dominant function is its most common application. Good luck.
All the colors available for G7 are of course also there for Bb7, Db7 and E7.
Collectively they resolve to C, Eb, Gb and A.
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Are you listening to the electric or the acoustic guitar here? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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this may give some ideas
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Electric. He's only playing a few of the more dissonant chords on this cut. He does more of it live, at least at times. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I'll have to look for more, better, examples.
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Minimal effort may come from reversing the process and finding where it works. Originally Posted by bako
For example, in the tune "Wave", the first four chords...
D69 or maj7 melody goes D C# A... F#
A#dim7#5 melody is from G WHdiminished
Am7 melody is A held
D9 Melody is A held
Schematically, this could have been composed as either
Dmaj7 Edim7 Am7 D9
where the E A and D are like a pseudo 2 5 1 "up a fifth"
or
Dmaj7 Gdim Am7 D9
where the D G A are like a pseudo "back door"
Those are both kind of heavy for this lighthearted tune, A#dim7#5 sounds nice.
In the course of experimenting you may discover that the Am7 takes the F# WHdiminsihed very nicely, and hearing the chromatic shift of a G diminished melodic line followed by an F# diminished melodic line sounds great over the Amdim7#5 to Am7 change. That F# WHdiminished even continues to sound great through the D9.
Now there are two pathways; either take note of how the relative changes and the two diminished lines sound as part of your aural vocabulary, or dig into the roots and tonics of these lines and chords, collapsing them by virtue of the symmetry of the diminished, and figure out a reliable application description... it's all about learning to find what you hear, or learning to hear what you find.
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Thanks. Great post. The observation that Am7 takes F#WH nicely was particularly helpful. I was aware that I could think D7b9, but thinking F#WH instead opened another door toward the sound I was looking for. Originally Posted by pauln
Minimal effort may come from reversing the process and finding where it works.
For example, in the tune "Wave", the first four chords...
D69 or maj7 melody goes D C# A... F#
A#dim7#5 melody is from G WHdiminished
Am7 melody is A held
D9 Melody is A held
Schematically, this could have been composed as either
Dmaj7 Edim7 Am7 D9
where the E A and D are like a pseudo 2 5 1 "up a fifth"
or
Dmaj7 Gdim Am7 D9
where the D G A are like a pseudo "back door"
Those are both kind of heavy for this lighthearted tune, A#dim7#5 sounds nice.
In the course of experimenting you may discover that the Am7 takes the F# WHdiminsihed very nicely, and hearing the chromatic shift of a G diminished melodic line followed by an F# diminished melodic line sounds great over the Amdim7#5 to Am7 change. That F# WHdiminished even continues to sound great through the D9.
Now there are two pathways; either take note of how the relative changes and the two diminished lines sound as part of your aural vocabulary, or dig into the roots and tonics of these lines and chords, collapsing them by virtue of the symmetry of the diminished, and figure out a reliable application description... it's all about learning to find what you hear, or learning to hear what you find.
F#HW (that is, GWH) also works, with some dissonance, against Dmaj7. That allowed me to play with the idea of using diminished (different ones for different chords) for the entire A section. The dissonance, applied with some melody, is the feature, not a bug.
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