Importance of each note in a chord

[a name]

When you're playing extended chords and you want a more 'spaced' out sound (which seems to be common), which notes would you omit first? I know you should let your ears decide but is there a 'standard' of some sort? For example, a major13 chord = 1-3-5-7-9-13, would the first choice be the fifth? What would be the choice be? And again I understand that it depends on the context but I'm interested to know the importance of each note (make sense? lol)

[billkath]

I don't really know that much theory yet, but there are certain notes that sound to me like they must be kept-- 3, b7, 13.

So-i'd knock off the 5 first, then the 9, then either the R or 3, depending on how the other chors around it imply the root or whether it's major or minor.

[bako]

If a note is altered then you wouldn't know it if nobody plays it.
When the melody is stating a chord tone (or played by any other instrument) then you have the choice to fill in what's missing or reinforce that note.
Root voicings are well more grounded and rootless ones are lighter.
You can also play more than one chord to address different notes when there is time.
The sound is most important and not just getting it all in. The context and your personal esthetic are a big influence on will work best.

[fep]

To answer your question...

An unaltered 5th is a note you can omit, that's the best first choice of a note to omit.

It might be best to think of what are the most important notes...

In approximately this order (keep in mind always and never are nonmusical words)

3rd, 7th, altered tones, upper extensions...

and if you're playing alone the root becomes important also.

[monk]

During my days at GIT, we were taught that in a group situation the root is first to go then the fifth.
Regards,
monk

[Reg]

It's sort of a trick question... the more you understand music, the less you need played. My point is... If your comping( I assuming that's what your referring to), and playing a typical standard that been played enough for even none musicians to know. You probable don't need to play, the melody implies the changes and the harmonic movement is heard by even those who don't understand music. So you could comp like a composer and play like a counter melody voiced or with moving bass line, line cliches etc... have fun.
But if the changes don't follow standard jazz harmonic movement , your job is to play those harmonies, re-harmonizations, or at least imply them. There's the tricky point... You have to decide what's required. If your unsure, what I've found is that most musicians don't know what the complete vertical harmonic structures are anyway, let alone audiences. The use of 5ths is fairly straight ahead except with dominant chords, Most #5's are b13th... This is a different topic and I've explained this on previous threads. Back to subject... Part of being a musician is being able to recognize those situation and making sure that the harmony is implied. If you can't hear the harmony... the people listening probable can't either. Most talk about the 3rd and 7ths being most important, from traditional voice leading, and what they imply, but jazz is not traditional music and there are other ways to imply the obvious. Use your ears and interact with the music, try different voicings. Jazz is about live music , improvisation, and interaction, find that balance that works for you and develop your skills. Sorry for not giving black and white rules, but comping is more than just covering the written chords. When I comp I simply fill or voice my lead lines or groove line and lock in to melody or solo and don't really worry about chord tones. Granted I'm a pro and have been playing since the stone ages, but that's how I approached comping when I started also. You need to be aware of both vertical and horizontal aspects all the time... if you practice that... you will get better. Best Reg

[derek]

I am a 5th out first, then root kinda guy.

[TommyD]

Too many intelligent, analytical players around here!
Here's what I do - get rid of the ones that are hardest to finger, and that otherwise slow down your playing.
Seriously, the root is always sacrifice-able because the bass player plays it, and even if there's no bassist, listeners hear it in their heads. Next is the fifth, and for the same reasons.
Tommy/

[CraigB]

As to the importance of each note:

The root is important, but is often picked up by a bass instrument or even a vocalist when playing with others. Therefore, it can be easily omitted.

The third is very important because it will create the voice of the chord (maj, min). This one can't be removed.

The fifth is also important but mostly because it ties in with the root (turnaround relationship). Since it's a given that this tone goes back to the root, leaving it out isn't going to kill anybody and the line will still get back to the root tone.

The seventh is another that can't be removed because it denotes what sort of chord you're playing (Ex: C13 or Cmaj13) and greatly changes the tonal structure of the chord's sound.

The ninth would be my third choice in terms of removal however it might cut into the fullness of the sound. That might be what you're looking for. The ninth helps to 'climb' up the fretboard towards thirteen (for your fingers) and creates a good harmony with the third.

Obviously the thirteenth (octave of sixth) can't be omitted or you wouldn't have the chord to begin with.

Just an idea:
You could replace the root (on low E in standard 13th) with another 13th/6th. For example, C13 would look like this: 5-x-8-9-10-(5) (EADGBe) or even funkier (8)-12-8-9-10-(8). They're both hard to finger, but they double up the 13th/6th tone and it definitely adds to the "space" in the chord. For an easier alternate: x-0-2-3-(3)-5 [on this one you could even throw the low E in as a 3rd in the bass]

[monk]

CraigB,
Two points.

1. Doubling is generally undesirable.
2. "I don't ever play hard chords."-Joe Pass

Regards,
monk

[bako]

1. Doubling is generally undesirable.

I like voicings with octave doublings quite a bit.
It brings alot of attention to the note doubled. Also it can fatten up the sound of an incomplete voicing in a lighter way than adding more chord tones.

a few examples

x 7 8 7 5 x------C9 or F#7+

x x 8 8 5 6-----C7#9 or F#13

x x 8 9 10 12---C13 or F#7#9

If you view doubling "generally undesirable", when would you consider their use a good thing.

Thanks,
Bako

[monk]

Hi bako,
It isn't that I, personally, view them as undesirable. It has to do with the physics of sound and common practice in jazz.

The chords that we tend to think of as "jazz chords" don't employ doubled notes. This is due to:
1. The early jazz guitarists derived their voicings from piano players who rarely doubled notes.
2. The early jazz and big band guitarists realized that 3 and 4 note voicings carried better because they present a clearer, more defined sound.
3. From the physics standpoint, doubled notes on the same instrument are competing for the same energy. Barre chords on an acoustic guitar don't travel as far with the same clarity as jazz chords. Try it and see.

While it might be argued that few of us these days employ acoustic guitars, I've found that 3 and 4 note voicings in a group tend to produce a cleaner, uncluttered sound.

I don't know what or how you play, so if doubles work for you, then by all means continue to use them. However, it's not common practice to do so in jazz. Electric or acoustic.
Regards,
monk

[CraigB]

Hi Monk,

That's good to know about doubling being rather uncommon. Also, I understand your point about clarity in a band situation and the clarity of non-competing tones on an instrument. I play acoustic guitar and it muddies the sound without a doubt.

However, I don't believe in music as defined by a "traditional" sense. I believe it has a tradition that, hopefully, we draw from. Like water through our roots when we play. There's a lot of music that has interesting effects not possible through strict adherence. Like a wind instrument blowing two notes. Offhand I forget the name of the performer who attempted it, Coltrane? Parker? They got the sound they were after though and it sounded like a well aimed/placed squeak that did actually carry the tones (at least to my ear).

Either way, my suggestion was more to help 'a name' find a "spacey" sound.

I appreciate the pointers. I love learning. There's an infinite number of schools of thought and they are all right. Thank [insert deity here] for that, it makes it a whole 'lotta fun.

[monk]

There's an infinite number of schools of thought and they are all right.

CraigB,
I repectfully disagree. That type of thought, while currently popular, is indicative of a lack of critical reasoning that leads to mediocrity or worse.

This "Politically Correct, New Age, It's All Good" type of thinking has more holes than Swiss Cheese. The idea that everyone is right and that everyone's opinion is equally valid is populist egalitarian crap.

Please don't misunderstand. I firmly believe that everyone has a right to their opinion. However, I don't believe that anyone has the right to express their opinion publicly unless they are qualified to do so.

A thought to ponder:
There is a right and a wrong way to do everything. If you practice eight hours a day doing something the wrong way, you will become very good at doing it the wrong way."-Michael Jordan

Respectfully.
monk

[axuality]

CraigB,
That type of thought, while currently popular, is indicative of a lack of critical reasoning that leads to mediocrity or worse.

This "Politically Correct, New Age, It's All Good" type of thinking has more holes than Swiss Cheese. The idea that everyone is right and that everyone's opinion is equally valid is populist egalitarian crap.

Please don't misunderstand. I firmly believe that everyone has a right to their opinion.
Respectfully.
monk

Ha, ha, ha. I fully agree with this. It not only applies to music, but to areas that we're probably not supposed to discuss in this forum, eh?
Thank you for saying it.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

By the way, I imagine why you can get away with omitting the natural fifth (eg: G7 3x34xx) even when you are playing solo is that the root implies the fifth strongly enough in its overtones. Do you buy that?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Ha, ha, ha. I fully agree with this. It not only applies to music, but to areas that we're probably not supposed to discuss in this forum, eh?

Not to worry, we get to play on a long leash here. On another music forum I could mention, *cough* TDPRI *cough*, they're sticklers for the no sex, drugs, politics or religion policy (although they have an entire subforum dedicated to Christian music ). In a thread on the magazine Rolling Stone, it's hard to avoid at least mentioning the P. word. I wrote that I don't like mags that combine music and politics, and that I prefer to get my world politics from The Economist mazazine. I posted an image of the magazine that happened to have Barak Obama on the cover, and I was sent e-mail warning me that this could get me banned. Sheesh.

[monk]

Do you buy that?

I might. How much does it cost?

Regards,
monk

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Well, you can keep the fifth!

[monk]

"We don't flat our fifths, we drink them."-Eddie Condon

[franamico]

Hi,
If you want to get a really good understanding of the value of each scale degree in a given chord or modal contour I would suggest Ron Miller's "Jazz Modal Harmony and Composition", Vol1

Good luck!!