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Like I'm sure many guitar players do, especially those of us most inspired by horn players, I feel that I have some gaps in my practical knowledge of harmony on the guitar. I have a good understanding of theory, and I know plenty of voicings and can comp through tunes well enough. But I'm in awe of people like Peter Bernstein, Adam Rogers, Julian Lage, and any number of others who seem to have total freedom in developing and expressing polyphonic ideas on the guitar, whether in solos or just comping. When I listen to their playing it never sounds like they are fighting voicings to get their ideas across or resorting to the same old patterns.
I know the way they've actually developed this ability is years of listening, practice, and probably trial and error. And I'm more than willing to invest time to practice, but I'm not sure *what* exactly to practice to systematically target this area of playing. Learning a bunch of chord voicings can be good, and a resource like chord chemistry can help there, but just playing shapes doesn't really integrate them into your playing. One thing that's helped a bit is dabbling in chord melody; that forces you to work on voicings, rhythm, and voice leading.
So my question is, how do you go about systematically tackling polyphonic playing on the guitar? What exercises or methods of practice have helped you to really integrate concepts into your playing?
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06-25-2023 04:40 PM
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Speaking as someone who feels kind of the same way with respect to this gap in my own playing … I’ve at least been working on it a lot lately.
Originally Posted by BreckerFan
I’m inclined to say, the larger the voicing, the harder it is to work with. So two-note voicings (guide tones and intervals) and three-note voicings (triads, spread triads, shells) being super useful and drop voicings being somewhat less so. Or, at least, harder to make use of, I guess. Anything bigger than that isn’t useful to me.
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It's an area I've been working on getting better at as well. What helped me the most is exactly not seeing chord voicings just as grips but internalizing the intervallic relationships between the chord roots and the notes in the voicings. I see the scales that the chords come from intervallically as well. In other words, chord voicings are superimposed over scales and linear ideas are superimposed over voicings.
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If we’re seeking chordal vocabulary skills, are we sure we’re talking about polyphony?
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For me, the big question is whether or not I can get something into my playing.
I have found, for reasons I don't understand, that I learn best when it's in-person and up close.
If I learn something from a book and even from a record (although this is more true of books), I probably won't get it into my playing.
But, if I can see what another player is doing while creating a sound that catches my ear, I've got a good shot at getting it into my playing.
Videos work -- and I'd recommend Reg's youtube videos (Reg523, I think). He shows you exactly what he's doing to make great sounds.
You may have to slow it down, but that's easy to do in youtube.
One thing that may not need to be said is that some things can be learned all at once with theoretical organization and some things seem best learned one thing at a time. Chord sequences have always struck me as the latter.
I think learning through chord melody is also an excellent approach. They're hard to read in standard notation, but maybe there are lesson videos that do it.
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that’s the “and harmony.” Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
And I think for *most* situations some version of polyphony is kind of the goal. Not just executing the chords, but outlining the chords with interesting movement, a melody, etc.
** not all players, not all situations, polyphonic to varying degrees, etc etc etc etc etc.
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I was using polyphony in its most literal sense of simply multiple voices. I wasn't just referring to the multiple independent lines style, although I think that's certainly related. But I didn't want to limit things to just comping either, but rather all the various applications of polyphony on the guitar. Originally Posted by Jazzjourney4Eva
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I think this is what I'm getting at. I haven't found an organized, systematic approach to harmony on the guitar. It does kind of feel like this somewhat random process of discovery where you stumble across a new voicing that ends up sticking. Where as single note playing I do feel can be approached more systematically. You can permutate ideas more freely when you aren't trying to voice multiple strings. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Maybe part of the problem is the geometric limitations of guitar. Piano players have more of a uniform grid to work with, whereas the layout of guitar forces you into certain shapes. And it feels hard to deviate from those shapes. I just wonder if there's a way within those limitations to work out harmonic ideas more systematically.
Hope my late night thoughts make sense
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Well why not start with a simple concept?
Composed tunes already have their harmony stated. So, rhythmic considerations aside for a moment, can we comp with voice led chords?
Freddie Green style on the lower strings? Lower and middle strings? Middle and high? High strings only?Last edited by Jazzjourney4Eva; 06-26-2023 at 11:21 AM.
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This is something I'm trying to work on much more as well. I think it's especially hard for guitarists, because we are son trained to recognize shapes and ingrain them in our mind, which then takes precedence over the actual notes being played. That's the "Don't have your hands play something that your brain doesn't understand" part.
I've started working with Randy Vincent's "Three-Note Voicings and Beyond" (having worked with his Drop-2 book for a long time) and deliberately focusing on just a miniscule aspect of it. For now I just started with rootless ii V I's as three-note voicings in the following way:
1. Understanding the voicings (and their inversions)
2. Be able to play those voicings on three sets of adjacent strings (I'm leaving out the bottom three strings because they don't really sound that great there) in all 12 keys
3. Work on one standard for like 2-4 weeks, applying only those voicings
It's tough, it's not always really fun, but it's worth it. For example, I first started with a ii V I where the ii-chord consists of 3-7-9 and wanted to apply it to 'All The Things You Are', but the 9 (G) of the F-7 chord is a half step away from the Ab of the melody... whelp.
But yeah, in general I would say: Pick a really small battle and make it as specific as you can be and really limit yourself to a few things, especially when actually practicing comping to a tune: Be clear what you want to practice, whether it's (for me) comping through it with only three-note voicings or focusing on rhythm another time (e.g. mostly long notes for the A section and more "stabs" and syncopated rhythms for the B section) or whatever.
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This: Originally Posted by BreckerFan
How to practice that is this: Originally Posted by Tal_175
Harmony fluency lesson 1:
1. Take 1 chord. Practice the inversions all the way up and down the neck. Practice using the shell, the vanilla chord, and including color notes.
2. Now play the scale on top as you move up and down between voicings.
3. Once you have fluency with this, make chord melody out of it. All chord melody is is a simply melody on top with chord inversions below. Or you can just jump between inversions to create a simple idea.
4. Apply this to simple chord progressions starting with a 1(3),6,2,5. Then a blues. Then simple tunes like Solar.
After you get fluent in this you can incorporate other concepts to spice it up further. But this is the bare bones to being fluent in harmony and you get a lot of milage out of it. I can make a video if you want.
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This is a great discussion, with so many thoughtful and useful points, thanks to everyone.
For me, context and participation are the main points. My context for the past several years has been solo chord melody performances at open mics or an occasional joint set, and participating in live jam sessions. For the solo chord melodies, the melody matters most to my ears, and the progression is closely linked to the melody. As others have noted, it’s all there in a tune. As an amateur with no aspirations to be a full time performer, I tend to follow the leads of guitarists who are good at it. Basically, to work up a solo version of a tune, I play the melody perhaps three times in different registers and with an evolving harmonization, and making use of guitaristic features like harmonics and open strings. I also try to find a balance between a minimalist take and a maximalist take, i.e. full chords vs. single lines or double stops. It’s all about variety within the melodic and harmonic structure. By no means any expertise, but that’s my usual work flow.
For jam sessions, the tune is the source, too. Melody and chords on a standard lead sheet, but now the challenge is fitting in with others. If there is a busy pianist, I tend to lay out. Same if there are multiple guitarists. Other times I’m the only comping instrument. So, I have to be ready to fill in or lay out. Since not all tunes called at a session are ones that I can learn in advance, and given the climate at these jam sessions is fine with reading charts, it comes to down being able to comp spontaneously from a chart while being aware of the context. I agree that double stops are often the way to go, and so one has to be aware of the possibilities beyond 3rds and 7ths. To do this, I need to know the fretboard very well (which I still have to work on in some keys) and I need to know how extensions and substitutions work, but also how to use them so as not to clash with other instruments. So my work flow for this is make note of what gets called at sessions and then run through those tunes before the next session. Recently, one of the sessions has several vocalists, and they all have their own charts in their own keys. At the vocal sessions, sometimes I’m with a pianist who fills in a lot of the gaps and extensions, so I’m learning to play the Freddie Green way four chords or voicings to a bar (another big challenge), no sustain, just rhythmic with the guitar volume turned all the way down, so it creates more of a feel than cluttering the harmonic background.
Speaking as a happy amateur, these approaches work for me, and I think they overlap with what a lot of you are talking about as well. Of course, learning is half the fun and I have a long way to go, so I just wanted to add the performance context and participatory dimensions. Thanks for reading.
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This is a very good approach that's also advocated by many masters of jazz chord melody. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Once this basic framework is mastered, it can then be expanded upon in two directions:
1. Exploring different textures. For example instead of playing two inversions as block chords, just play the bass notes of the inversions with the melody. The middle voices can be stabbed in syncopation with the melody to taste. This promotes seeing the bass, the melody and the middle voices as separate horizontal voices as opposed to seeing everything as rigid, blackbox grips. There are many other textures of course.
2. Adding substitutions and passing chords. For example in the scalar (horizontal) view, moving chord voicings in scale steps (generally) amounts to putting diatonic passing chords between the inversions. Diatonic passing chords also sometimes function as secondary dominants (for example Am - Bmin7b5- Cmaj7 is like Cmaj-G9-Cmaj in inversions) other times they create smooth movement. Of course endless sea of options to further explore here.
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1: Learn the basic major 7, dominant 7, minor 7 and m7b5 chords on xx0000, x0000x, and 0x000x string groups. Write them out yourself, don't buy a book. When you buy a book of chords you are buying someone else's homework. You have to do the hard part.
2: Then write out and learn the inversions. 3rd in bass, 5th in bass, 7th in bass.
3: Then start doing ii V I VI progressions in one space on the neck using the inversions so you don't have to move from the string set and fret group.
4: Move onto songs in the same style
Then you'll start to see this stuff. It took me at least 2 months to get to the third step, then I started to stumble on voice leading and stuff on accident.
Or you could go to piano and be playing with this stuff in 2 weeks. It's all right there, clear as day on the piano. It is what it is.
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Hey brecker fan... (yea who wasn't, isn't)
So yea you need all the technical BS... as mentioned above, how to play any note on top of any chord anywhere on the fretboard etc... but that is like kids stuff, how one begins. You go through and then you know the fretboard and how it works. And in the process learn about voicings etc.
Then you need to get a level of understand how harmony works. Functional BS. Very simply... what chords, notes want to do in a musical context. The context should define a tonal reference(s). All this means is... you, someone, something.... is choosing a musical tonal reference. Ex. could be "Bb".
There can be different guidelines for organizing the rules for "Function"... with Reference to that "Bb".
The starting points would be...
-Diatonic, (including Relative and Parallel
-Modal, modal interchange... all the other BS besides Ionian or Maj/Min functional harmony.
-Styles... like blues, jazz etc...
etc...
It starts getting a little more complicated now...
With Jazz, it's not just about the Reference, (Bb). We add.... creating Relationships with that Reference and Development of those Relationships.
Ex... say a bebop tune in "Bb" I VI II V... Bbma6/9 ... G-7....C-7...F7 . An example of a Relationship could be...
using a dominant approach chord to each chord of the I VI II V chords.
/...Bb69...(D7) / G-7...G7/ C-7...C7 / F7... F7 / I know very vanilla and sucks..
The point is I'm expanding the harmony with a musical relationship... you need a few more steps of adding Relationships and developing those relationships... to get to sound like anything.
The Bb6/9 is cool, but the D7 would usually become D7 alt. because of going to a G-7 Min. chord and maybe a Blue note relationship. The G7 would probable become the tritone sub... Db7#11, the C7... same, C7 sub of Gb13 to F7 and the B13 to the Bb6/9
/Bb69...D7#9 / G-7 ... Db9#11 / C-9 ...Gb13 / F13 ... B13 / and of course all the sub games can be used.
So now we're starting to expand the Chord progression, just like soloing. Now you need to expand your single chords... into CHORD PATTERNS. Chord patterns are patterns that imply a tonal Target. Tonal Targets are like a Tonic that becomes movable... A Tonal target, (in the ex., each chord of that progression I VI II V), can expand
into a Chord Pattern, or be approached by a Chord Pattern... and still retain their simple Functional Relationship to
the original Chords.
You now usually need to have a Lead Line, or type of melody on top of the Chord Pattern to help reinforce the musical organization for the choice of... what "Chord Patterns" your using. The better you get at organizing the basic Chord Patterns and the Melodic lead lines on top ... with relationship to the original REFERENCE... the tune or whatever your playing.... Parts of an arrangement of a tune... the form and it's development .... the better it works.
It's difficult to explain this concept and application on paper etc... Pick a Tune you know, a simple tune and I'll go through some examples of how to approach.
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This is exactly it. And, you can hear it on Reg's youtube videos and see exactly what he's talking about. Originally Posted by Reg
One thought I had the other day, which took decades too long to occur to me, is that scat singing to yourself to find a line for a solo has a direct analog to comping. You scat sing a simple line that will work in a comp and get those notes on top of your chords. It's exactly the same thing Reg is describing (with apologies if I've misunderstood anything) about chord patterns -- and, once you can hear them in your mind, you can use your melodic gifts (you have gifts, right?) to make the comp musical.
So, for example, for Rhythm Changes in Bb, maybe you start with A and you descend chromatically. You could think of it as the maj7 of Bb. But, another way is that you have A on top and then you fill in a couple of notes, say, F and C (so, low to high, it's C F A). It's a fragment of a Bbmaj9, but a convenient way to play it is with a partial barre at the 10th fret, which looks like Dm7 (or an Fmaj triad).
If you're scatting a descending chromatic line, then the next note is Ab and you can just drop all three notes. Same for the G.
Now, you're on a fragment of Cm7 with one more to go. For the F#, playing a B7 fragment might sound more appropriate than a Bm fragment, so you play A D# F#, low to high.
It's all very easy to finger.
In my mind, at this moment, I can sort of hear the line continue to descend. So, next up is an F. The original chord is the Bbmaj7, but this line seems to be subbing in a Dm7 (D F A C - which is a rootless Bbmaj9, but the bassist has the root). So, G C F is an option.
If we then think of the chord pattern as Dm7 G7 Cm7 F7, the next chord could be G7 with an E on top. My choice would be F B E, a familiar fragment of a G13. Notice that the individual notes move down smoothly by a half step or step on the same string. Next is Cm7 with an Eb on top. F Bb Eb. Last in this sequence would be F7 with a D on top. Eb A D works. Or, instead of the D on top, you could repeat the Eb, but drop the other notes and play a fragment of the tritone sub, B7, F# A D#.
That allows you, if you want, to put a D (the next descending note) on top of the Bb7. In my version, I break the chromatic line at that point and put an Ab on top of beat 2 of the Bb7. Then I can resume the chromatic line with a G on top of the Eb and a Gb on top of the Ebm.
Probably too much detail, but the idea is to sing a simple countermelody and to get it on top of your chords.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 06-26-2023 at 04:12 PM.
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Anyway- Excellent question! There’s so many ways to go about it and I could quite honestly go on for hours. I try and boil down some useful points. This is very much a learning process for me; but this is what I have learned: Originally Posted by BreckerFan
1) disassociate notes on the neck from fingering. You want to have multiple ways of playing chords. Get away from grips.
2) work in no more than three voices.
3) melt scales into chords and vice versa
4) break things up - simple chord forms can sound highly unfamiliar if broken up in an interesting way.
5) always play the melody note first in solo song arrangements (active voice). The melody could also be in the bass or the middle voices.
6) bass lines should also melodies
7) incomplete voicings
8) study great polyphonic music. Two part inventions on guitar have been used by many, and I would recommend them
9) have no more than one active voice at a time, but keep switching.
10) polyphony comes as much from the left hand as the right - learning to sustain notes with one finger while moving another voice over or under it
11) invert everything
12) again Bach teaches all of this if you are paying attention
13) did I mention intervals? No? Consider them mentioned. Chords are made up of them, and it’s good to get used to what intervals are in them. I don’t just mean from the bass. I think ultimately I’d like to think and hear more in intervals than chords.
14) contrary bloody motion
TBF the players you all mention have different approaches. Peter is really into chromatic movement and introducing non parallel motion between the bass and treble in otherwise quite common chord grips. He works in up to four voices. Someone like Gilad, his student takes a more contrapuntal/Bach inspired approach.
There’s the Mick Goodrick approach as wellLast edited by Christian Miller; 06-26-2023 at 02:15 PM.
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I think the simplest way to start with this is to put together a standard arrangement - just melody and bass and maybe one other voice. Then, practice doing something simple - a short scale line, a chromatic lower neighbour tone, a linking phrase, whatever - in another voice when the melody isn’t doing much.
After a while I think this will become quite natural. Some tunes have a lot of space for this, like All the Things you Are, where so much of the melody is in long note values
break up those chords as well - try to not just strum a shape (unless that’s the sound you want) but think about the voices in a chord as having their own identity. If that makes sense.
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Switch to keys. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Thanks for all the great discussion. I'll have to take some time to digest it all. I think more deliberately practicing the connection between voicings and scales and then applying that to melody lines could get me going in the right direction.
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Soprano voice down.
Voice leading.
Stealing sh@t from keyboard players.
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I just tried one. First two bars of Rhythm changes. Chart says Bb^7 G7 Cm7 F7.
That's two bars four quarter notes each.
Start on 6th fret E string and play, descending, quarter notes, Bb F D and then up to G (B string 8th fret). Then, descending, Eb C Bb and A. I did it with some syncopation but I'm not going to figure out how to post sheet music for this post.
Anyway, that's a little snippet of melody. Now, to harmonize it.
Idea 1. Fourths. xx5566, x5556x are the first two notes. Then I tried x2223x but I didn't like it. I changed it to x1223x.
For the G I liked xx3443
then x3334x 2x23xx and 1x12xx.
Idea 2. Started with xx556, xx546x, xx343x, xx343x, xx3433, x3334x, 2x13xx and then 1x13xx.
Idea 3. I kept hearing the chromatic line again, this time, starting on D. I voiced it in tenths. Starting with 6xx7xx and going a fret at a time down to 3xx4xx. then x3xx4. then 2xx3xx and 1xx2xx. Of course, the original line could be voiced in 10ths as well.
Idea 4. xxx 10 8 6. This gives a major 6th sound. Next up would be, to my ear, xxx 10 7 6. That's C D F against G7 in the chart, so it's a sus sound. Next could be xx97xx. Maybe xx 9 10 8 x to get the G on top. xx854x for the Eb. That's a little stretchy, but it preserves the sonic quality. I'd probably use xx754x for the rest of it. It's got the melody, and it's audible, even though it's not on top. Sure, I broke a rule, but in jazz ...
Now, Rhythm Changes is usually played fast. So, to make this easier, we can extract some easier portions. Maybe xx 10 7 6x, go to xx976x, xx88xx xx78xx (add a note on the B string if you like). You can still hear the original melodic idea, but now it's not on top.
The point of all this is that if you start with a snippet of melody and you think about two and three note voicings, you have a lot of options and you're likely to discover things you hadn't noticed before.
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I don't really like disagreeing with Christians... he's a great player, and I like his internet personality. But I world dump most of his list. You can finger 6 note voicings and still just play one or two notes, the point is you'll have choices from each voicing etc... And generally when your comping.... you don't play the same thing over and over. At worst you'll at least have a call and answer type of thing going on....
Rick is on to a much more useful approach. His idea of singing the lead line is cool. I just hear the notes, Don't need to sing them. But that approach will get you headed in the right direction. The line should sound like a melody or some type of melodic line. Different styles and tune imply different lines etc...
And eventually your going to get to the point that you can have more layers of harmonic organization going on at the same time.
All the voice leading guidelines from counterpoint and traditional music.... don't really work, they'll limit what you play and typically put audiences to sleep. We are talking about Jazz... right?
And yes... knowing the connections between voicings and scales is part of what I'm talking about. The rest is what I posted above.... being aware of the...
1) REFERENCE(S), usually some type of Tonal or Modal reference
2) the musical RELATIONSHIPS created with that REFERENCE and their organization
3) the DEVELOPMENT of those RELATIONSHIPS and the organization
the rest is just getting your technical skills together.
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There are levels, and I don't know how many or which one this is, but when you discover this particular level you will begin to understand a lot. Originally Posted by BreckerFan
Simplest way is to describe it. I am working on a song, testing out ideas. On a certain chord type in the song I discover something that sounds great (line "A"), but also find something very different that also sounds great (line "B"). I find that not only do both sound great but I can also play both together one after the other in either order and that sounds great.
So I think to myself, these lines might have some kind of relationship in which I may use one or the other or both. Later, while working another song I see the same chord type coming up and try line A, it works beautifully. I try line B and it fails miserably! I try them run together in both orders and that's still no good - only line A works in the second song, but both of them worked in the first song.
This is an important thing to learn - if you are exploring lines against chord harmonies, knowing the chord type is not enough. The chord type is part of the harmonic organisation of the particular song, the chord has a purpose in the song, it 's coming from somewhere and is going someplace. That "coming from somewhere and going someplace" may be different for different songs even though both songs use that same chord type.
The lines you play need to suggest, express, reflect, or respect the harmonies' sense of coming from somewhere and going someplace. What you learn about lines and chords mutually help each other, but notice that the two songs used the same chord harmony just fine, but the two lines did not work there for both songs. Something about the same chord type in each of the two songs was very different... the coming from somewhere and going someplace aspect of chord harmony may be opened up and more vividly shown by the applications of lines to express them; especially taking note of the lines that work in one song's chord but not another song's same chord - examining that will help you discover the way harmonic organization changes the harmonic context. The application of lines is an excellent test of the harmonic context; but you need to hear the line within the harmonic context of the song to do this.
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Somebody help me out, here... what is the theory nomenclature for a chord's sense of coming from somewhere and going someplace within a song's progression context? Harmonic organization? Function? Forward movement?
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Harmonic context works. Originally Posted by pauln
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