How do you work on chords and harmony?

[Christian Miller]

I don't really like disagreeing with Christians... he's a great player, and I like his internet personality. But I world dump most of his list. You can finger 6 note voicings and still just play one or two notes, the point is you'll have choices from each voicing etc... And generally when your comping.... you don't play the same thing over and over. At worst you'll at least have a call and answer type of thing going on....

Rick is on to a much more useful approach. His idea of singing the lead line is cool. I just hear the notes, Don't need to sing them. But that approach will get you headed in the right direction. The line should sound like a melody or some type of melodic line. Different styles and tune imply different lines etc...

And eventually your going to get to the point that you can have more layers of harmonic organization going on at the same time.

All the voice leading guidelines from counterpoint and traditional music.... don't really work, they'll limit what you play and typically put audiences to sleep. We are talking about Jazz... right?

And yes... knowing the connections between voicings and scales is part of what I'm talking about. The rest is what I posted above.... being aware of the...

1) REFERENCE(S), usually some type of Tonal or Modal reference
2) the musical RELATIONSHIPS created with that REFERENCE and their organization
3) the DEVELOPMENT of those RELATIONSHIPS and the organization

the rest is just getting your technical skills together.

Hmm, how about less disagreement more talking about totally different things?

I think you are talking more about harmony - chords- and I’m talking more about texture.
The OP mentions ‘polyphony’ specifically. I think when jazz guitarists talk about counterpoint or polyphony what they mean is less Fux and more textural - taking chords and making them more ‘counterpointy’. Actually there’s a lot of the latter you can get from Bach two part inventions even though people think of Bach as the ‘pure counterpoint’ guy. You can see 2-5-1s and cycles and all that stuff.

So I’m thinking more solo guitar and less playing in a quartet with a horn player. For reference this type of stuff:

I mean, your harmony playing tends to be pretty homophonic with the voices moving together like a sax section (I’ve not listened to everything you’ve put out) - that’s not a bad thing and that’s we are all doing 90% of the time anyway because it’s what the guitar does in a band.

If you are doing that you can play as many voices as you like with them dropping out, coming back in etc and no one cares. But it won’t give you that polyphonic effect because at the end of the day, you are playing chords as, well chords.

But tbf it’s quite hard to know what BreckerFan wants specifically because the players he references are all quite different. I’m not sure I’d describe Peter as polyphonic at all for example. Adam has studied Fux (he was a classical music major iirc) but I don’t expect Peter has, and so on. Some players have gone through the Mick Goodrick Almanacs, others not so much. The only thing their harmony has in common beyond being jazz is that they’ve gone really deep into it.

[Christian Miller]

OTOH while I wouldn't describe Pete as being 'polyphonic' I do think basic principles of counterpoint feature in his chord playing.

Niceties of common practice voice leading etc what can we say is the basic tenet of good counterpoint?

We can say counterpoint is the principle of not using too much parallelism. In trad counterpoint we avoid parallel perfect consonances (perfect fifth and octave) and dissonances and two many parallel sonorities of the same type are frowned on too - and so on - why? Well because we want the parts to sound independent.

So Peter uses this principle a lot with just quite basic guitar harmony. Take this sort of thing played in standard four voice drop 3 voicings:

Bb7 A7 Ab7 G7
Dbm Cm Bm Bbm

The treble line moves down in parallel half steps with the bass, and so do all the other voices.

The guitar is naturally a parallel instrument. It's easy and often musically effective to simply move shapes up and down. While I don't want to discourage people from doing that, which is both big and clever, it does sometimes mean that the sound of guitar harmony can get very predictable. Parallelism isn't wrong - but it is something that sounds a certain way, and is very recognisable once you are keyed into it.

So Peter simply introduces small amounts of chromatic contrary motion between the bass and the soprano (lead line) of the chord, every second chord, or so.

Bb7#11 A7b13 Ab7#11 G13
(So we get E-F-D#-E in the sop)
Dbm11 Cm7 Bm11 Bbm7
(So we get Gb-G-E-F)

You can go further with this and have the whole lead line be contrary:
Bb7 A7#11 Ab7b13 G7b5 (7th in soprano)
(D-Eb-E-F)

Basically you can boil it down to - don't use the same grip twice in a row. Vary voicings and keep them connected by the lead line. You don't have to use Peter's approach although I think it's a good one.

[Tal_175]

Here is an article by Julian Lage on a similar subject:
Digging Deeper: Learning Tunes in Three Dimensions - Premier Guitar

[pamosmusic]

Just answering this question kind of made me double back and start getting back into those two-note guide tone chords, and 3-7-somethingelse voicings.

When I was 14 or 15 and first got into jazz, Ed Bickert was the first guy I got realllly deep into and I worked on those little guide tone voicings a lot. They’re still the basis for probably 80% of what I play when I play trio. I’ve been working on a bunch of other stuff, but maybe time to just go back to what’s been working, but with an extra many years experience.

We’ll see.

[BreckerFan]

Let me clarify again because I probably wasn't precise enough and I probably shouldn't have used the word polyphony. I was speaking of the ability all these guitarists have to express musical ideas, whether comping or soloing, to express multi voice musical ideas. Bernstein has a more traditional, block chord/chord solo approach (though as Christian is pointing out, with a sophisticated consciousness of the relationship and movement between the chords). Rogers uses that approach at times as well, often with quartal voicings, but he employs a lot of polytonal/chromatic harmonization techniques as well. Lage is probably closest to true polyphony. I listen to his solo recording of Emily and it sounds to me like a piano player playing guitar.

What they all have in common is the ability to improvise in multiple voices, which I in a very literal but strictly incorrect way described as polyphony (some time has passed since my theory classes haha). What I'm after is the ability to improvise in multiple voices, whether that's in the context of comping or soloing.

[Reg]

So Breckerfan..

Here is a simple example of a simple approach for creating and developing ... harmonic, melodic etc...music in a jazz style .

Playing a simple II V... like "Scrapple from the Apple"

G-7 to C7 thing 1st four bars.

The approach is using diatonic functional organization of using Chordal or melodic idea.... and transposing that idea... up a Diatonic 3rd or down a Diatonic 3rd..

So the G-7 is the Reference in Key of "F" as the tonal reference

up a diatonic 3rd is Bb maj and down is Emin

So your using chordal organization and scale organization to create Relationships with the Reference G-7 C7 with tonality of "F".

Now you can start to Develop that those Relationships.

So it now depends on how much you can Hear or Understand.

Personally... as Christian tends to hear my playing.... homophonic is the goal. I really use polyphonic voicings and organization all the time....I'm just very good at camouflaging it. I make the listener hear what I want, because I understand how and what I'm doing.... and have good technique which allows me to create on the fly.

It's like you learn how to organize music within.... space, The Form or shape. That organization works better when you have an understanding of how to organize that space using guidelines that are from and define whatever the Style is your performing within.

Generally as I've been posting for years... most hear the top 1st, then the bottom and lastly the inside.

So generally you have 3 parts to work with.... the melody on top, the lower note which can be the harmony and lastly you have the inner voices which can be where to can have fun. I'm not talking about boring traditional counterpoint and voice leading... but it's very easy to use contrapuntal technique to add non traditional voiceleading... modal interchange and expand single chords in to chord patterns.

I tend to use top line for Blue note lick ideas ....

[BreckerFan]

So Breckerfan..

Here is a simple example of a simple approach for creating and developing ... harmonic, melodic etc...music in a jazz style .

Playing a simple II V... like "Scrapple from the Apple"

G-7 to C7 thing 1st four bars.

The approach is using diatonic functional organization of using Chordal or melodic idea.... and transposing that idea... up a Diatonic 3rd or down a Diatonic 3rd..

So the G-7 is the Reference in Key of "F" as the tonal reference

up a diatonic 3rd is Bb maj and down is Emin

So your using chordal organization and scale organization to create Relationships with the Reference G-7 C7 with tonality of "F".

Now you can start to Develop that those Relationships.

So it now depends on how much you can Hear or Understand.

Personally... as Christian tends to hear my playing.... homophonic is the goal. I really use polyphonic voicings and organization all the time....I'm just very good at camouflaging it. I make the listener hear what I want, because I understand how and what I'm doing.... and have good technique which allows me to create on the fly.

It's like you learn how to organize music within.... space, The Form or shape. That organization works better when you have an understanding of how to organize that space using guidelines that are from and define whatever the Style is your performing within.

Generally as I've been posting for years... most hear the top 1st, then the bottom and lastly the inside.

So generally you have 3 parts to work with.... the melody on top, the lower note which can be the harmony and lastly you have the inner voices which can be where to can have fun. I'm not talking about boring traditional counterpoint and voice leading... but it's very easy to use contrapuntal technique to add non traditional voiceleading... modal interchange and expand single chords in to chord patterns.

I tend to use top line for Blue note lick ideas ....

Do you have any audio examples of your approach?

[pamosmusic]

Let me clarify again because I probably wasn't precise enough and I probably shouldn't have used the word polyphony. I was speaking of the ability all these guitarists have to express musical ideas, whether comping or soloing, to express multi voice musical ideas. Bernstein has a more traditional, block chord/chord solo approach (though as Christian is pointing out, with a sophisticated consciousness of the relationship and movement between the chords). Rogers uses that approach at times as well, often with quartal voicings, but he employs a lot of polytonal/chromatic harmonization techniques as well. Lage is probably closest to true polyphony. I listen to his solo recording of Emily and it sounds to me like a piano player playing guitar.

What they all have in common is the ability to improvise in multiple voices, which I in a very literal but strictly incorrect way described as polyphony (some time has passed since my theory classes haha). What I'm after is the ability to improvise in multiple voices, whether that's in the context of comping or soloing.

Yeah I get it.

I believe we’re probably talking about “homophony” which is more like block chords with a melody on top. But it’s not that cut and dry in the improvised context. Definitely some polyphonic parts too. Polyphony just implies that the other voices have some independence from the top and bottom.

***if I remember correctly.

[rpjazzguitar]

I hear independent voices in solo guitar quite often.

I don't hear it so much in group settings. Maybe in very sophisticated compositions, played by masters at a slow enough tempo? Jimmy Wyble and George Van Eps come to mind.

What would be an example of polyphonic comping, in a band setting, at a brisk tempo, on a jazz standard?

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I get it.

I believe we’re probably talking about “homophony” which is more like block chords with a melody on top. But it’s not that cut and dry in the improvised context. Definitely some polyphonic parts too. Polyphony just implies that the other voices have some independence from the top and bottom.

***if I remember correctly.

yeah it’s confusing. I think when you do say counterpoint most people probably think of a Bach fugue or something, an imitative counterpoint texture which we could also describe as polyphony, while Bach chorales are also a form of counterpoint, just not polyphonic examples.

Counterpoint itself is the art of combining single lines with out losing linear independence. Studying partimento imitative counterpoint is actually often built up through embellishment of simple point on point frameworks - a familiar one would would be 1-3-7/1-7-3 shell voicings around the cycle - so I don’t actually think of counterpoint being a textural thing myself - more fundamental. It makes sense to discuss Peter and so on in that light because as I posted he does use general contrapuntal principles - as do many players in fact even though his playing is fairly homophonic.

Historically it’s questionable whether the concept of harmony existed before Rameau published his theory (c1730) and even after it was seen more as a theoretical underpinning than a way to learn music until much later. Until the c19 (and maybe beyond) it was all counterpoint whether it was a homophonic chorale or a polyphonic fugue and based on intervals. Harmony in Rameaus tradition entailed the study of chords and fundamental bass (root) movement largely in the way we would recognise today.

As a result in modern times in jazz circles at least counterpoint and polyphony are often used quite interchangeably to refer to a texture as in the Gilad example.

[pamosmusic]

I hear independent voices in solo guitar quite often.

I don't hear it so much in group settings. Maybe in very sophisticated compositions, played by masters at a slow enough tempo? Jimmy Wyble and George Van Eps come to mind.

What would be an example of polyphonic comping, in a band setting, at a brisk tempo, on a jazz standard?

Id have to find a specific tune but I’ve seen Pasquale Grasso live a few times and he does that kind of stuff, and more consistently than could just be called “texture” or whatever. Contrary motion in that very fluid kind of way. I’m sure some examples would pop up in his Bebop album.

[pamosmusic]

Id have to find a specific tune but I’ve seen Pasquale Grasso live a few times and he does that kind of stuff, and more consistently than could just be called “texture” or whatever. Contrary motion in that very fluid kind of way. I’m sure some examples would pop up in his Bebop album.

Yeah … in the I’m In a Mess, with Samara Joy, he’s doing some wild stuff.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah … in the I’m In a Mess, with Samara Joy, he’s doing some wild stuff.

Ok so PG of course we come to Barry.

Barry‘s approach to harmony had a lot to do with counterpoint. He often quoted ‘I don’t play chords I play movement’ (Coleman Hawkins)

So drop 2 in the eight note scales is just the beginning right? But Barry didn’t invent that, that was commonplace in jazz before he came up - what he developed was the free use of the eight note scale the block chords generate - and according to Howard Rees didn’t start teaching this until as late as the 1980s.

You have contrary motion, oblique ideas and suspensions/borrowings and so on that can all be done in the Barry harris way.

Towards the end of his life he said that he was moving towards three voices, even on piano.

Jordan Klemons otoh has ‘liquid harmony’ which I refer to as ‘melted chords’. It’s one way into it and actually I think it has more in common with the baroque approach than people suppose…

[pamosmusic]

Ok so PG of course we come to Barry.

Barry‘s approach to harmony had a lot to do with counterpoint. He often quoted ‘

So drop 2 in the right note scales is the beginning right? You have contrary motion, oblique ideas and suspensions/borrowings and so on that can all be done in the Barry harris way.

Towards the end of his life he said that he was moving towards three voices, even on piano.

And actually, Jordan has come up a few times on some threads today, so we could maybe link to those if this isn’t the right place to go down that rabbit hole.

But he has some really nice ideas that make this concept specifically (moving voices) fairly accessible.

Putting his specific ideas aside, a lot of that accessibility probably comes back to applying these traditionally tricky ideas over very simple structures (triads, in his case).

(Also he calls it “liquid harmony” which is a good enough name that I might steal it for a band name or something, but that’s neither here nor there.)

[pamosmusic]

ok so pg of course we come to barry.

Barry‘s approach to harmony had a lot to do with counterpoint. He often quoted ‘i don’t play chords i play movement’ (coleman hawkins)

so drop 2 in the eight note scales is just the beginning right? But barry didn’t invent that, that was commonplace in jazz before he came up - what he developed was the free use of the eight note scale the block chords generate - and according to howard rees didn’t start teaching this until as late as the 1980s.

You have contrary motion, oblique ideas and suspensions/borrowings and so on that can all be done in the barry harris way.

Towards the end of his life he said that he was moving towards three voices, even on piano.

Jordan otoh has ‘liquid harmony’ which i refer to as ‘melted chords’. It’s one way into it

dammit jinx

[Christian Miller]

Yeah sorry, got you in the edit

[Christian Miller]

I mean there’s a lot of counterpointy stuff in contemporary jazz tbh. I learned a neat dim scale thing today. Anything where you are playing around with intervals and dyads pushes you that way as soon as you get out of just parallel stuff

[pamosmusic]

I mean there’s a lot of counterpointy stuff in contemporary jazz tbh. I learned a neat dim scale thing today. Anything where you are playing around with intervals and dyads pushes you that way as soon as you get out of just parallel stuff

Yeah there’s a my music masterclass thing out there with Alex Goodman that is super cool and is about contrary motion within the diminished scale. I think it’s applicable anywhere, but not sure. Took a bunch of notes but haven’t really been through it yet.

[pamosmusic]

Or maybe we’re talking about the same thing again

[Christian Miller]

Or maybe we’re talking about the same thing again

ah nuts I think you may be right

[Tal_175]

According to ChatGpt:
The terms "polyphony" and "counterpoint" are related to music composition and describe different aspects of multiple lines of music being played or sung at the same time.Polyphony refers to the texture of a piece of music, and specifically to more than one melody being played or sung at the same time. This can create a complex and rich sound, as the different melodies interact and overlap with each other.Counterpoint specifically refers to the relationship between two or more melodic lines in music. The goal of counterpoint is to create a sense of harmony and balance between the different lines, while also maintaining a sense of independence and individuality for each line. This can create a sense of tension and release as the lines interact and complement each other.So, to sum up, polyphony refers to the texture of a piece of music, while counterpoint refers to the relationship between multiple melodic lines in music.

[pamosmusic]

ah nuts I think you may be right

Has anyone ever seen Peter Amos and Christian Miller in the same room, at the same time?

[A. Kingstone]

John Oliver and Christian Miller in the same room?

[Christian Miller]

According to ChatGpt:
The terms "polyphony" and "counterpoint" are related to music composition and describe different aspects of multiple lines of music being played or sung at the same time.Polyphony refers to the texture of a piece of music, and specifically to more than one melody being played or sung at the same time. This can create a complex and rich sound, as the different melodies interact and overlap with each other.Counterpoint specifically refers to the relationship between two or more melodic lines in music. The goal of counterpoint is to create a sense of harmony and balance between the different lines, while also maintaining a sense of independence and individuality for each line. This can create a sense of tension and release as the lines interact and complement each other.So, to sum up, polyphony refers to the texture of a piece of music, while counterpoint refers to the relationship between multiple melodic lines in music.

Chat GPT nailed it

its also good at birthday present ideas btw

[Tal_175]

Quoting from Julian Lage's article above:

"As jazz guitarists, there are certain prerequisites we have to master in order to begin developing our personal relationship to the music. We need to understand the physical mechanics of how to play the guitar, gain an intimate knowledge of the fretboard, and acquire a firm understanding of scales, harmony, rhythm, and improvisation. "

It's easy to overlook this statement. When it comes to jazz, "Gaining an intimate knowledge of the fretboard" I think amounts to instantly knowing what a given note on the fretboard is in relation to the chord in the moment. George Benson likened that to fretboard being lit up with each chord. Joe Pass said something similar also I believe.

I've made big strides towards this goal in the last couple of years with consistent work. The closer I get to that goal, the easier everything becomes. I think you're also more likely to learn things the right way, without the (subconscious) shortcuts if you can reduce the mental overhead of seeing everything in the context of the chord in the moment.