Playing in a Big Band

[sgcim]

I've noticed that some of the guys, well, quite a few of the guys I know who are prolific in producing charts, like to critique charts.

Sometimes I think they like it better than playing the music. And, if you get two of them in the room at the same time, they may put on My Dinner With Andre Critiquing Charts.

And, occasionally, there are differences of opinion and I'll get complaints about the chart whichever way I do it.

To be fair, I've learned a lot from them, but I do get frustrated when the meaning of the symbols is completely clear but not the way they (or the Music Gods in general) prefer to see it. So they can get picky about changes that make no practical difference but which require that I redo the chart, print 6 copies in concert, one for Eb one for Bb, tape all 8, put them in the books and discard the previous version. Also make sure that the folders on the computer are fully up to date with the new version, or, pretty soon on a gig somebody won't have the right chart. More often, though, they're right but I resist because of all that printing and taping and it's just not the way I think.

I got that about my drum parts. Two of them, a drummer and trombone player/arranger, told me I wrote drum parts all wrong.
They were right, but it's all because I'm using MuseScore. You can hear all the drum parts on playback, so you can get them to sound exactly like you want them, but that's not the traditional way drummers like to have the drum parts written.

Drummers only want you to write the horn parts that MIGHT need to be accentuated by them (mostly the brass parts, but sometimes the syncopated sax parts). They want the choice to pick and choose what to play, and might ignore something you definitely want them to play, unless you write something like "PLAY (you stupid MFer!)".
They also want the brass figures written out, so they know where they are in the chart, and will lambaste you if all you write is time (like I had to do on some of the rock charts on tunes by Steely Dan,Traffic, etc... I write out fills I want them to play, but they hate that too, because they want to do their own fills.
The trombone player is a heavy dude who plays European tours, and puts out his own CDs, and says that he only spends a few minutes on all the parts once the score is written, but usually spends the entire day on the drum part.
He says that he gets together with other arrangers, and they spend hours criticizing each other's charts. He did that with a chart I brought down, and we were going back and forth till one in the morning, when he all of a sudden he said, "My wife is going to kill me!", and got in his car and pulled off.

[Christian Miller]

Wasn’t it Buddy Rich who said he preferred to work from a 1st trumpet part?

[sgcim]

All the big box jazz nerds gangsta till the Maynard charts come out - and then they sound like a 15 year old who’s just learned the minor pentatonic.

mea most definitely culpa

I play a Borys Jazz Solid, so all I needed was my Boss OD pedal to wank on the pentatonic minor on the Maynard "Gonna Fly Now", and several times I went into my polyrythmic, orgasmic Paul Gilbert bag to make those ancient ears bleed.
I came very close to going down to the rug and rolling around on the floor during my two chorus solo, but that might have caused some cardiac events in the more elderly members or surely an early cessation of the rehearsal.

Believe it or not, Jorma Kaoukanen claimed that he saw Kenny Burrell rolling on the floor during a solo in a club in Europe.

[rpjazzguitar]

I got that about my drum parts. Two of them, a drummer and trombone player/arranger, told me I wrote drum parts all wrong.
They were right, but it's all because I'm using MuseScore. You can hear all the drum parts on playback, so you can get them to sound exactly like you want them, but that's not the traditional way drummers like to have the drum parts written.

Drummers only want you to write the horn parts that MIGHT need to be accentuated by them (mostly the brass parts, but sometimes the syncopated sax parts). They want the choice to pick and choose what to play, and might ignore something you definitely want them to play, unless you write something like "PLAY (you stupid MFer!)".
They also want the brass figures written out, so they know where they are in the chart, and will lambaste you if all you write is time (like I had to do on some of the rock charts on tunes by Steely Dan,Traffic, etc... I write out fills I want them to play, but they hate that too, because they want to do their own fills.
The trombone player is a heavy dude who plays European tours, and puts out his own CDs, and says that he only spends a few minutes on all the parts once the score is written, but usually spends the entire day on the drum part.
He says that he gets together with other arrangers, and they spend hours criticizing each other's charts. He did that with a chart I brought down, and we were going back and forth till one in the morning, when he all of a sudden he said, "My wife is going to kill me!", and got in his car and pulled off.

That's interesting about drum parts.

The guitar charts written by pros often give the guitar player some indications of what is going on in the band. So, there'll be some smaller notes with the text "bones" or something like that. So, you're not counting in a sensory deprivation chamber, but rather, you can listen to the band, read the chart, and be very confident that you're in the right place. It also may tell you which instrument is soloing, which also helps you know where you are and also may help choose the comping approach.

In contrast, I've been playing a chart of an unfamiliar tune lately with a 42 bar rest in uptempo 3/4 (and a 21 bar rest and some shorter ones) with no indication of what's happening in bar 41 -- and the guitar seems to come in at random in the middle of a phrase. There's no drum cue, no change in the horns, just suddenly they're voiced with guitar. That makes it very easy to get lost, for me, anyway. Counting 42 bars in a tune which seems formless is mind-numbing. Would the other arrangers in his Mean Girls Arranger's Club have given him s*** for helping a dumb guitarist count to 42 by putting in a few mini-notes in bars 40-41?

[rpjazzguitar]

I play a Borys Jazz Solid, so all I needed was my Boss OD pedal to wank on the pentatonic minor on the Maynard "Gonna Fly Now", and several times I went into my polyrythmic, orgasmic Paul Gilbert bag to make those ancient ears bleed.
I came very close to going down to the rug and rolling around on the floor during my two chorus solo, but that might have caused some cardiac events in the more elderly members or surely an early cessation of the rehearsal.

Believe it or not, Jorma Kaoukanen claimed that he saw Kenny Burrell rolling on the floor during a solo in a club in Europe.

Your band plays somewhere with a rug? I'm impressed! <g>

[sgcim]

Your band plays somewhere with a rug? I'm impressed! <g>

Yeah, we rehearse in a country club whose annual fee is something like 100K!
After the rehearsals, I go into the locker room and stuff my pockets with cashews.almonds, mints and Q-tips from the huge glass tubs that are just lying there.
One time I was talking with the bandleader about real estate after a rehearsal, and he nonchalantly told me that he owns five blocks of Manhattan real estate on one of the Avenues...

[sgcim]

That's interesting about drum parts.

The guitar charts written by pros often give the guitar player some indications of what is going on in the band. So, there'll be some smaller notes with the text "bones" or something like that. So, you're not counting in a sensory deprivation chamber, but rather, you can listen to the band, read the chart, and be very confident that you're in the right place. It also may tell you which instrument is soloing, which also helps you know where you are and also may help choose the comping approach.

In contrast, I've been playing a chart of an unfamiliar tune lately with a 42 bar rest in uptempo 3/4 (and a 21 bar rest and some shorter ones) with no indication of what's happening in bar 41 -- and the guitar seems to come in at random in the middle of a phrase. There's no drum cue, no change in the horns, just suddenly they're voiced with guitar. That makes it very easy to get lost, for me, anyway. Counting 42 bars in a tune which seems formless is mind-numbing. Would the other arrangers in his Mean Girls Arranger's Club have given him s*** for helping a dumb guitarist count to 42 by putting in a few mini-notes in bars 40-41?

Yeah, on jazz charts they don't give a damn about cues, but in the 100 different shows I've played, every single one of them has cues for a rest of more than five measures.
I think the jazz writers assume you can count choruses rather than measures.

[sgcim]

Wasn’t it Buddy Rich who said he preferred to work from a 1st trumpet part?

Buddy claimed that he couldn't read music.
He hired Joe LaBarbera to be his rehearsal drummer.
Buddy would sit in front of the orchestra, and listen to the band play the chart, with Joe sight reading the drum part.
After one listen, they'd play the chart again with Buddy playing the chart perfectly.

But there's a big difference between the charts that Buddy played and a Gil Evans chart,,,

[rpjazzguitar]

Speaking of Gil Evans ...

I'm looking at the guitar chart for his arrangement of My Ship (later "edited and adapted" by somebody else.

There is a notation at the beginning of the Tag that says "THUMB (then a symbol I'm about to ask about) w. TPTS".

The symbol is a little circle above a horizontal line. I haven't seen it before and it isn't in my text on arranging.

Any idea what it means?

That's interesting about show charts. The big band charts I've been playing, by pro arrangers, don't always have cues. But, usually the long rests end with an obvious transition.

I appreciate it when drummers play something which cues a transition Also, when players do a little hand signal at rehearsal marks, if they're laying out.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, on jazz charts they don't give a damn about cues, but in the 100 different shows I've played, every single one of them has cues for a rest of more than five measures.
I think the jazz writers assume you can count choruses rather than measures.

Probably realpolitik. How can we try to ensure in every way we can’t that this straightforward music in a large production with lots of stuff going on doesn’t go wrong where an error would be quite glaring?

Jazz cats meanwhile beat their chests about ‘muh musicianship.’ And no one in the audience notices probably when the guitar comes on a bar early cos it’s not flipping Evita.

[Christian Miller]

After the rehearsals, I go into the locker room and stuff my pockets with cashews.almonds, mints and Q-tips from the huge glass tubs that are just lying there.

I don’t care what you do for a living - you are clearly a true musician.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by sgcim
After the rehearsals, I go into the locker room and stuff my pockets with cashews.almonds, mints and Q-tips from the huge glass tubs that are just lying there.



I don’t care what you do for a living - you are clearly a true musician.

Man... that was good, Christian, I can't stop smiling...thanks

Yea the country club gigs, they're weird. One of the agents I work for.... old guy, produced early Stan Getz and lots of other great stories, anyway almost all the best paying BB gigs seem to be connected to CC events. And I'm guessing... shcim also has great stories... anyway the last one, they booked band for 3 hours after dinner... and of course after 1st set of dancing etc... and the paramedics have left... and the majority of people are asleep or gone etc... we start playing request, which usually gets from $500 to a $1000 per tune, (cash right there on the spot), the band actually makes as much in tips, or more than the contract. ( I keep 30 or 40 old standards, Rogers & Hart, Porter etc... in simple Dave Wholp or Frank Mantooth style arrangements... I get 4 tunes on folded 2 page staff paper. Basically 3 parts with mechanical like arrangements, drop 2 etc.. (voicing of the 3 parts). (old Vegas like days) They suck, but are worth gold.

I don't know how many of you play golf.... but many working musicians do. The CC's can be great source of extra $ LOL. (just for the record... not my usually gigs... I've played a bar, a pub and 2 breweries this week and at another Brewery today. I'm more of a low life guy, LOL.)

[sgcim]

Probably realpolitik. How can we try to ensure in every way we can’t that this straightforward music in a large production with lots of stuff going on doesn’t go wrong where an error would be quite glaring?

Jazz cats meanwhile beat their chests about ‘muh musicianship.’ And no one in the audience notices probably when the guitar comes on a bar early cos it’s not flipping Evita.

Very well put. The pressure on musicians is so intense that a friend of mine who was doing "Chicago" on Broadway told me a story that made me shiver.
The woman MD was a real witch, who would ream any musician that made a mistake, no matter how tiny.
Some poor guy flubbed a passage, and she gave him such a reaming, that he went home and committed suicide(!).
It got in the Times, and they 'burned' the witch, with all the musicians getting the revenge on her that they craved, in interviews, but that wasn't going to bring the guy back to life..
I was playing one in the city, where a woman clarinetist made a mistake on one fast passage in the high register which made it sound like Hindemith on Broadway, and she was crying during intermission, repeating over and over, "I don't know what happened!"
The conductor was a nice old guy, and didn't say anything.

[sgcim]

Originally Posted by sgcim
After the rehearsals, I go into the locker room and stuff my pockets with cashews.almonds, mints and Q-tips from the huge glass tubs that are just lying there.



I don’t care what you do for a living - you are clearly a true musician.

Man... that was good, Christian, I can't stop smiling...thanks

Yea the country club gigs, they're weird. One of the agents I work for.... old guy, produced early Stan Getz and lots of other great stories, anyway almost all the best paying BB gigs seem to be connected to CC events. And I'm guessing... shcim also has great stories... anyway the last one, they booked band for 3 hours after dinner... and of course after 1st set of dancing etc... and the paramedics have left... and the majority of people are asleep or gone etc... we start playing request, which usually gets from $500 to a $1000 per tune, (cash right there on the spot), the band actually makes as much in tips, or more than the contract. ( I keep 30 or 40 old standards, Rogers & Hart, Porter etc... in simple Dave Wholp or Frank Mantooth style arrangements... I get 4 tunes on folded 2 page staff paper. Basically 3 parts with mechanical like arrangements, drop 2 etc.. (voicing of the 3 parts). (old Vegas like days) They suck, but are worth gold.

I don't know how many of you play golf.... but many working musicians do. The CC's can be great source of extra $ LOL. (just for the record... not my usually gigs... I've played a bar, a pub and 2 breweries this week and at another Brewery today. I'm more of a low life guy, LOL.)

I inherited a set of golf clubs from my father, and decided to put them to use by either selling them, or using them myself.
I took them to a CC rehearsal to get them appraised by the zillionaire bandleader/sax player, certain that the clubs were worth a small fortune.

I waited till the rehearsal was over, and proudly showed him the set of clubs, and waited for my newly found wealth to be validated,

He doubled over with laughter, telling me I'd be lucky if I could get $20 for the entire set on Ebay. "Half of them are made of wood! They're bargain basement clubs!"
Thus ended my golfing career.
The hundreds of CC gigs I've done were all small group things, where we were usually the house players. One CC had my hero, Whitey Ford, as a member, who was 100% sloshed, 100% of the time, and since all we played were standards, you could hear his loud, drunken voice over the music.

I met him face to face at the water fountain, and told him that I modeled my pitching style after his, and proceeded to demonstrate that famous cross handed delivery he used, as he watched in disbelief, crocked out of his mind.

The big money was in private concerts that I did with Michael Amanti, where they'd provide a BF Twin for me, and we'd get six bills for playing a 40 minute concert (which was big money back then). The concert would end, and I felt like it ended before it began. His MD was the producer/arranger/conductor for Laura Nyro's first album on Columbia, H. Bernstein, and I would have hours long conversations with him about LN, in between paid rehearsals and the gig, until he'd get so sick of me pumping him for info on the music biz, that he'd make up some excuse for getting away from me.

They'd have people like Dave Mason giving them private concerts.

[sgcim]

I don’t care what you do for a living - you are clearly a true musician.

There are truer musicians than I, though they are few in number. One old friend of mine was seen stuffing full lobsters into his sax case!

[Christian Miller]

There are truer musicians than I, though they are few in number. One old friend of mine was seen stuffing full lobsters into his sax case!

Nice!

[sgcim]

Nice!

He's a multi-DownBeat Award winner, who has several albums out, too.
Maybe that's the secret of his success.

[Reg]

I inherited a set of golf clubs from my father, and decided to put them to use by either selling them, or using them myself.
I took them to a CC rehearsal to get them appraised by the zillionaire bandleader/sax player, certain that the clubs were worth a small fortune.

I waited till the rehearsal was over, and proudly showed him the set of clubs, and waited for my newly found wealth to be validated,

He doubled over with laughter, telling me I'd be lucky if I could get $20 for the entire set on Ebay. "Half of them are made of wood! They're bargain basement clubs!"
Thus ended my golfing career.
The hundreds of CC gigs I've done were all small group things, where we were usually the house players. One CC had my hero, Whitey Ford, as a member, who was 100% sloshed, 100% of the time, and since all we played were standards, you could hear his loud, drunken voice over the music.

I met him face to face at the water fountain, and told him that I modeled my pitching style after his, and proceeded to demonstrate that famous cross handed delivery he used, as he watched in disbelief, crocked out of his mind.

The big money was in private concerts that I did with Michael Amanti, where they'd provide a BF Twin for me, and we'd get six bills for playing a 40 minute concert (which was big money back then). The concert would end, and I felt like it ended before it began. His MD was the producer/arranger/conductor for Laura Nyro's first album on Columbia, H. Bernstein, and I would have hours long conversations with him about LN, in between paid rehearsals and the gig, until he'd get so sick of me pumping him for info on the music biz, that he'd make up some excuse for getting away from me.

They'd have people like Dave Mason giving them private concerts.

Yea... love it man, Yea I did the union thing, for years...get hired for private gigs in huge room or top of some tall building, and play... maybe 45min. and yea the tips were the money. Those are great stories man, hits home, same shit just different coast. I'm just normal average working musician.... but I could play golf LOL... and would get me in with the big $ hang, which would open a lot of doors. There are always tons of incredible musicians... just depends on what one is willing to do.... With golf... you can't fake it... I think I won our union golf tournament 3 years in a row... and the educators tourney a few times,( was more of a social event). But our local had some sticks... This was like ...last century... but still great bragging rights thing for us old dudes. (old sticks are for walls... or basements, LOL). (Sorry, not trying to insult the hand me down thing, my family was into sports and my golf started with hand me downs, hell my father gave me sticks when I graduated from Berklee... used junk).

[sgcim]

Yea... love it man, Yea I did the union thing, for years...get hired for private gigs in huge room or top of some tall building, and play... maybe 45min. and yea the tips were the money. Those are great stories man, hits home, same shit just different coast. I'm just normal average working musician.... but I could play golf LOL... and would get me in with the big $ hang, which would open a lot of doors. There are always tons of incredible musicians... just depends on what one is willing to do.... With golf... you can't fake it... I think I won our union golf tournament 3 years in a row... and the educators tourney a few times,( was more of a social event). But our local had some sticks... This was like ...last century... but still great bragging rights thing for us old dudes. (old sticks are for walls... or basements, LOL). (Sorry, not trying to insult the hand me down thing, my family was into sports and my golf started with hand me downs, hell my father gave me sticks when I graduated from Berklee... used junk).

Jerry Goldsmith broke into film scoring by playing tennis with as many directors as he could. It worked!

[rpjazzguitar]

I've been posting about some of the difficulties with big band charts -- not the music, more like problems with the paper.

A new one last night.

Page 1 of a chart is all chord symbols, but page 2 has a lot of single notes.

I start to play them, but they don't sound good, so I revert to the chord symbols, which work fine.

It turns out that page 1 is a guitar chart, but, at some point, somebody must have lost page 2. So they copied page 2 of the bass chart and taped it to page 1 of the guitar chart. There is no bass clef on page 2. The bass clef was, apparently, only entered on page 1. Why bother with a bass clef on every stave of a bass chart?

[Christian Miller]

I've been posting about some of the difficulties with big band charts -- not the music, more like problems with the paper.

A new one last night.

Page 1 of a chart is all chord symbols, but page 2 has a lot of single notes.

I start to play them, but they don't sound good, so I revert to the chord symbols, which work fine.

It turns out that page 1 is a guitar chart, but, at some point, somebody must have lost page 2. So they copied page 2 of the bass chart and taped it to page 1 of the guitar chart. There is no bass clef on page 2. The bass clef was, apparently, only entered on page 1. Why bother with a bass clef on every stave of a bass chart?

its like the key signature thing. That’s for NERDS. Apparently.

[Christian Miller]

He's a multi-DownBeat Award winner, who has several albums out, too.
Maybe that's the secret of his success.

of course he is. You imagine JS Bach was any different? He was doing the same when he went over to Frederick the Great’s for sure, and rightly so

[PatrickB]

I don’t care what you do for a living - you are clearly a true musician.

Please explain why Q-tips are in a glass tub along with other snacks. Freebies from an ENT physician's convention?

[Christian Miller]

Please explain why Q-tips are in a glass tub along with other snacks. Freebies from an ENT physician's convention?

the rich are a different species?

[sgcim]

I've been posting about some of the difficulties with big band charts -- not the music, more like problems with the paper.

A new one last night.

Page 1 of a chart is all chord symbols, but page 2 has a lot of single notes.

I start to play them, but they don't sound good, so I revert to the chord symbols, which work fine.

It turns out that page 1 is a guitar chart, but, at some point, somebody must have lost page 2. So they copied page 2 of the bass chart and taped it to page 1 of the guitar chart. There is no bass clef on page 2. The bass clef was, apparently, only entered on page 1. Why bother with a bass clef on every stave of a bass chart?

I've had charts that started out as trombone parts, and then became piano charts on page two. I can't count the number of charts I used to play in this one band where I'd have no idea which clef it was in till I played the first note.
They treat us like dogs, especially if you're in a piano-less big band.