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Man, that old Epiphone sounds great...
An unfortunate side effect of this dive into rhtyhm guitar has been a LOT of looking at old archtops...no scratch for that right now, though.
The Kay performs pretty well, really.
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05-04-2023 12:41 PM
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There's one point I'd like to make.
In many threads about rhythm playing there are some posts about how it can't be done (at all) in nowadays big Bands, and I strongly disagree with that.
While there is some truth in that reasoning it certainly is not THE truth.
I don't want to disagree, that big bands are louder today then they were in the 40s, and that the sound of the rhythm section has changed because drummers play different kits and the Basses don't have gut strings on them. But I don't think the conclusion of that is that there's no place for playing acoustic rhythm in a big band.
First of all: What's the worst that can happen? There's no harm in at least tryin' to make it work.
And even if you don't get 100% of the desired result 80-90% might still be a pretty good.
Firstly (as has been discussed on here before) the sound and timbre of an acoustic guitar is very different from that of an electric.
When you're trying to accomplish that Basie thing an acoustic will always be th ebetter choice. Even when the Bass is amplified, and the drummer plays a modern kit you'll have a much better blending then you'll ever have with an electric guitar.
In my experience - when the venue is decent - you'll be able to do a good job without any need for amplification.
To be true, i'm not really concerned if the Drummer doesn't bring a vintage Drumkit. I've had much more trouble with piano players who didn't know how to comp this style, then I've had with some cymbals or drumheads. Additionally you can always talk to your colleagues in the rhythm section. Explain what you're trying to do. A lot of drummers are happy to have a dedicated rhythm guitar by their side.
And even if the band is louder then you'd hope, it's still about making a compromise. I'll gladly dig in harder throughout the gig, and be drowned on louder passages, but get to keep the full timbre of the acoustic guitar. That is what makes it worth it to me.
For me that often is just the better compromise.
Of course there are also situations where going unplugged is not an option. I always have a clip-mic in my guitar-case for those events. Sometimes the venue sucks, or you're playing outdoors.
Still, with a mic you lose the natural projection of an archtop. But again, in those situations that probably is the next best compromise.
And to proof my point here is an old recording of a Band I used to play with. I had a cheap höfner plywood acoustic at that time. THe Drummer played a modern Drumkit, and the Bass had steel strings on it and ran through a small amplifier.
The record was done with a small Zoom recorder centered in front of the band.
I'll let you decide if I'd been better off with some form of amplification.
Paul
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Work firewall is blocking your recording, I'll have to check out later...
I'm starting to think of the applications of this in a smaller band format too...been playing along with Oscar Peterson/Ray Brown/Ed Thigpen trio records the last few days...think that will be an upcoming video...
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I suspect that part of the issue with a big band is how the whole ensemble decides to voice itself--which probably means how the leader decides. I would think that starts with setting general levels by reference to the rhythm section, and setting the rhythm section means balancing the loudest elements (drumkit and piano) against the least-loud (acoustic bass and guitar). Then the horns play in/against that environment. What I hear in Webby's recording is a classic big-band balance: the rhythm section is audible (sometimes in that felt-not-heard sense) everywhere except in forte/tutti passages. And even then, I suspect that the horn players could make out the pulse. BTW, that old Hofner sounds pretty decent in that setting, quite locked-in, which is a matter of the player's hands as much as the box.
I fuss over amplified sound a lot, since I sit in with an amplified ensemble (electric bass and keys, two horns, full drumkit, lead/comping guitar) in which I'm pretty much redundant. My guitars are all carved acoustics with floating pickups, now played through a Henriksen Blu Six*, and I'm still fiddling with settings and levels to get an amplified equivalent of the chunk that will fit in with the drums and bass. The sound in my head is the Pizzarelli rhythm chunk (especially John's), but it's hard to suppress the high-frequency element that amplification exaggerates. (Tape-wound strings on my Eastman help.)
* I know--a bigger speaker like the Blu Ten's would help, but my 78-year-old shoulders complain about hauling a heavier rig.
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The challenge I'm finding in one of the big bands is that it rehearses in a huge room. The band spreads out more than would be typical on a stage. So, I'm a lot closer to some players than others. With one amp, I have a choice, blast the players near me and be heard by all, or, play at an appropriate level for those near me and be inaudible elsewhere. The latter situation allows me to hear the piano, an unamplified upright.
I brought two amps for a while, but, one night, the one further from me got turned down to zero volume and nobody complained about not being able to hear the guitar (the other amp was working) so I figured, why bother with two? But, last week, a horn player told me that he couldn't hear me on the other side of the room.
In the other band, the room is smaller and the band is packed in. I'm next to the pianist's amp and I figure, all I need to do is be marginally quieter than that. The bandleader usually runs a volume check at the start of each gig so it gets dialed in. That band usually has an audience, and I've been told balance is good and that I'm audible, even with just the Little Jazz.
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One solution — it works for me —is to place an upfiring Toob in the middle of the room. Everyone can hear and I can play at lower amp volume so some of the acoustic chunk still gets through. This works best when the band rehearses in a hollow square.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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So while old jug ears was getting his fancy hat, I had a gig yesterday, a little Dixie/swing trio, bass guitar and trumpet. Tpt (really good guy) playing through a lot of cool old timey mutes (he had loads of them) so volume level was controlled
i took my Loar lh600 and a fender medium pick (I also had my little battery amp but I didn’t use it). I was… skeptical…
And you know what, it was great. Balance was fine even with a bit of background chat and I had plenty of room to come up for solos. Haven’t done an acoustic gig for ages and I always end up hitting too hard. Working with a light pick forces me not to overdo it and I didn’t perceive any compromise in terms of projection or volume. Also articulating single notes and things was fine - I couldn’t shred quite as fast as with a gypsy jazz breeze block perhaps but I had no trouble playing on up tunes - although I was aiming for a more chordal style
So thanks again pcjazz…
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well you are already off to a winner with a big band that actually plays dynamics haha! Originally Posted by Webby
The drummer knows the gig too
Yeah the balance sounds perfect.
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I think one of the leaps of faith of playing an acoustic archtop is accepting that you aren’t going to hear the guitar super loud but that’s ok because the sound is going out and up in a focussed beam, so it’s more efficient and carries better. The balance you hear is probably more like what the audience hears than with a flat top.
It’s a bit like what I remember from classical singing- high notes in particular don’t sound right to you - they sound muffled rather than bright and zingy - so you have to sing to the feeling not the sound, especially in a somewhat dry acoustic.
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I really want to try a Loar. My old Stella has V neck that doesn’t bother me.
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Sounds like a super fun gig! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Coming this week...jamming with Oscar Peterson Trio and what happend when you...gasp...plug in.
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For a while I played with a bassplayer who refused to use amplification playing this kind of music (I loved playing with that guy!). For quite a while we made it a point to the conductor and the rest of the Band, that our output was the level for the band, and they'd have to deal with that. Took some time to establish that as a rule, but the band sounded killer afterwards! Originally Posted by RLetson
Thanks! Originally Posted by RLetson
I did switch to a nice Eastman though, which sounds a lot better!
Paul
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Yea... I gotta say... I disagree with most of the concepts that seem to be what most call comping on guitar.
While Webby's playing sounded great... personally there just wasn't near enough there. The zoom, (they were cool, still have one), was up front and typically wasn't what the audience would be hearing. Harmonically ? But that is probable what the ensemble wanted and the result worked and sounded well done.
I'm not knocking the playing. Sound great, at least what I could hear.
That just doesn't work for most gigs, even Christians trio gig. Which sounded great, in my area of the world... we call those live visual background noise gigs. Wineries, corporate events etc....wish I had one everyday.
I guess where I'm going is... what is comping, what is the point of comping. I know the point of why and how I comp
But I'm not sure what other think etc...
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Well, this particular thread isn't really about comping (I don't call this style comping, maybe some would, but if somebody asked me to "comp" for them, I wouldn't start by playing 4 on the floor rhythm.)
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yea I agree. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
So pretend your at a gig and a tune is called ... what would you do. Or is this more of a help get together the skills to be able to comp direction. All good, I'm just not sure how to contribute.
Personally the amp thing or whether to use an amp ... is more like is this a tux gig or hip casual etc... LOL.
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This is literally just a dive into a very particular, antiquated but fun style of playing. It's really not about practicality, or trying to "teach" anybody anything...I'm just posting my observations on it as I go.
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Cool thanks
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But still feel free to contribute. It might not be your main thing, but I'm sure you've played some Freddie Green style in your life.
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Don't know that I'd call swing rhythm playing "antiquated"--though I'm a bit of an antique myself*. It's no longer at the center of "jazz," but it remains functional in subcultures where old-style social dancing is still practiced. The players who trained (or at least paper-trained) me functioned very well playing for dancers and backing singers--and in listening settings, could operate in bop/straight-ahead modes. (And FWIW, I've seen teenagers get out on the floor and imitate their elders at swing dances, so the music has some cross-generational reach, even if the kids are clueless, dance-technique-wise.)
* At 78, I'm part of the next-to-last cohort for whom couples-dancing-with-touching (sock hops, teen canteen) was a significant social/mating activity. My 75-year-old sister is probably the last, and my younger brother (not yet 70) probably never danced a lick. Though I'm sure that youngsters have reinvented social dancing to suit themselves and their own musics over the last half-century-plus that I've been out of the finding-a-mate biz.
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Thank you very much for the kind words! Originally Posted by Reg
I totally agree with you, that this not a playing style that has a lot of practical applications, but in a very certain setting it fills a role that is adding a lot of value to the music, which is my idea of good comping (meaning enhancing the music). Originally Posted by Reg
You're also completely right, that this isn't all that much about adding harmony. The idea is to add a pulse to the music.
RLetson ist hittin' the nail on the head here:
About 90% of my gigs are Lindyhop-Festivals. For dancers that quarter-note-pulse is essential. Everything they do is based on that. A rhythm guitar can help dramatically to enhance that pulse in a way that Bass and Drums alone couldn't. Originally Posted by RLetson
The piano can take care of the Harmony.
Or to put it differently:
This is what it's all about
PaulLast edited by Webby; 05-09-2023 at 02:34 PM.
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Yeah there’s gigs out there where playing this way is a prerequisite.
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When my late friend Dan talked me into playing in public with him (the year I turned 50), I was a fingerpicking folkie sofa guitarist. But the repertory of Dan's band (guitar, bass, sometimes trumpet, vocals) was all over the place, and I what learned to do there and with a later partner/mentor was to fit in and help out. And most of the time that meant playing some version of rhythm/backing guitar on country or swing or standards or folk or acoustified rock. About the same time, I started going to summer swing-centric workshop camps, where I got fairly orthodox dance-band instruction and experience: shell chords, very basic theory (harmonized major scale, some chord spelling), and the chance to play for dancers and singers.
What I've taken away from these experiences are the commonalities of being a supporting musician: listening hard, playing economically and in time, and staying out of the way--but being willing to add a little oomph or accent where it might help. (The example of Django's rhythm-and-comping is always before me, though I also hear drummers in my head.*)
The challenge of sitting in with a cohesive, boppish quintet/sextet that already has a fully competent guitarist has been to fit my rather old-fashioned skill-set into that context--and maybe expand it. It's been five years and they haven't disinvited me yet, but maybe if I turn up my amp a bit they will.
* And when the drumming stops--bass solo!
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Man... that's a great photo.... thanks, made my day. Yea I'm also Old, RLetson has me by a couple of years, LOL
There is a touring dance band in my area, that do sub for... only in emergencies. When is in that direction, yes I play the part.... although never without an amp. The Big Bands are just to loud.
But this probable isn't a good thread for me. And sorry if I rubbed anyone wrong.
Reg
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Hey, it's MY thread and there was no wrong rubbing.
Ooooh, that sounds weird
Hoping to get my next few musings up today or tomorrow...I'm actually far enough into this now where I'm starting to think it'd be beneficial for every guitar player to spend some time doing it. But that's probably just my inner self saying "I like this, other people should too."
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No hard feelings form my side, it's all fair! Originally Posted by Reg
I really ejnoy the exchange of different perspectives in this thread!
Paul
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