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The chord book I've used most heavily is a very distinctive one by Lionel Grigson
Lots of 'bill evans changes' - no melody or words - informal publication I got from a guitar shop in Edinburgh in like 1993.
I miss it. The changes were consistently both advanced (with more movement than in typical versions) and workable - i think very lovingly researched.
I would love to get my hands on a copy - there was a kind of black and white cartoon on the front cover - and the changes were presented so concisely in four bar chunks that you typically got three tunes per page or more.
thanks for any help tracking a copy down....
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12-20-2022 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
Excellent book, btw. When I received it I learned a couple things just glancing through it before I even studied anything... in Darn That Dream "everyone" always does GMaj.7th to the Eb7 chord....... but it's a GMaj.7th to Bb mi.11 to Eb7, etc. (the Eb7 being the 2nd inv. with the Bb in the bass)
Def. seems like pro-level changes in a lot of the tunes. Not that I can play them all, but it's nice to have to refer to, for sure.
**edit:
fleaBay UK sometimes has a copy, but at ridiculously inflated prices. I paid 49 usd through Alibris.Last edited by ChazFromCali; 12-21-2022 at 08:50 PM.
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great reply
do you know what the title of the lionel grigson book is? - it will help me search for it
- and are you recommending harmony with lego bricks, or agreeing with me about how cool grigson's book is? can't quite tell from what you say.
the detail you mention on darn that dream is just the sort of thing that's great about the Grigson book...Last edited by Groyniad; 12-21-2022 at 10:31 PM.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
They're both top-shelf.
A Jazz Chord Book (3rd Edition) by Lionel Grigson
3rd edition has a couple corrections in it, that's the ed. I bought. I refer to it a lot.
Harmony with Lego Bricks, oh hell yes ;-) HIGHLY recommended. The publishers of that book have a weird policy of doing very limited reprints of it. They usually do not have any available at any given time, so you may have to wait. Basically you have to email (or call if you're in the UK) and tell them you want a copy. They'll notify you when the next reprinting is.
And good luck trying to find a used copy for a reasonable price at the usual online places like Amazon, eBay, etc.
In my opinion Harmony with Lego Bricks is a foundational music education book. Head and shoulders above 98% of what's out there. Definitely will clarify your thinking. The section on "joins" is like alien flying saucer technology lol - way, waay, smarter than what usually passes for "jazz education."
Good luck in your quest. The good stuff is hidden and difficult to obtain.Last edited by ChazFromCali; 12-23-2022 at 05:24 AM.
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Originally Posted by ChazFromCali
My favourite bits are actually the two ‘rants’ which I found incredibly interesting and influenced my thinking a lot.
the general concept of the book is pretty much how all experienced professional straightahead jazzers break down and hear tunes, although his terminology is very much not the standard in my experience. Jerry Coker’s Hearin the Chnages is a book with a very similar concept, if you don’t know it. Interesting to compare.
Excellent book, btw. When I received it I learned a couple things just glancing through it before I even studied anything... in Darn That Dream "everyone" always does GMaj.7th to the Eb7 chord....... but it's a GMaj.7th to Bb mi.11 to Eb7, etc. (the Eb7 being the 2nd inv. with the Bb in the bass)
I think that depends which version you are working from. There’s no single correct set of changes for Darn that Dream (unless you count the original songbook changes which isn’t really how jazz works, but good to know) - for example not everyone likes the chromatic ii V’s later in the A section and may even play the melody different . It depends who you listen to and who you play with.
The m11 in a ii V usually arises from substitution of a ii V for a V.
One of the best ways to learn about harmony imo is to compare a lot of sources (and as your ears get better recordings) and observe the differences and commonalities in versions of tunes. It’ll teach you about functions, subs and so on better than any theory text. People have opinions and preferences on tunes. By learning different opinions you develop your own preferences.
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Btw just so you know I once heard a leading UK jazz player be extremely dismissive of Grigson.if you like it, great, but don’t imagine it to be some gold standard of pro jazz changes.as for myself I never used it, but I’d be interested to check it out. Always good to see more changes for tunes!
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Originally Posted by ChazFromCali
The Books – Insights In Jazz
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Did the UK jazzer say why? Maybe he was thrown off by the terminology, i.e. "more shit to remember." I was a bit off-put by that as well at first....... but Cork does say it's merely to help you differentiate them as you learn to hear the joins, and that you may not even need the terminology after you internalize the sound of each one.
As you know, basically there are only six to remember, (out of twelve) those six covering around 75% of the modulation situations in standards that you'll encounter, small price to pay for such a large increase in understanding, lol. This book helped me tremendously and no, while I remember the names I don't think with them. I just know the sound of each join. (having thought about it a minute its a combination of knowing the sound and knowing where to start the move to get to the key I want)
Regarding Grigsons book, everybody approaches changes differently (vive la difference!) I just thought that the Gmaj7 / Bmi. 11th / Eb7 sounded better. Barry Galbreath does not play it that way as far as I remember, that being sort of the default (guitar) version. But I like that move a lot better than G maj.7 straight to Eb7 .
cheerz !
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the only collection of changes that i've come across that seemed to me to have some sort of authority - i.e. gave me the idea that the changes were 'right' - is a book called
all the right changes
by dick hyman
maybe there's more than one edition of this - i had one or both once upon a time
he does the 'standard changes' plus 'bill evans' changes (i.e. more developed changes) thing better than i've seen any other book do it. I think mr hyman has serious credentials too. not sure.
i just remember liking the additional movements grigson gave me over other sources.
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Originally Posted by ChazFromCali
It's a free software (think Band in a Box and beyond) that's based on the ideas of Mr. Cork.
You'll find it here:
Improvisor home page: https://www.cs.hmc.edu/~keller/jazz/improvisor/Last edited by DonEsteban; 12-26-2022 at 04:37 AM. Reason: Corrected link
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
I have one of his books and I like it, it has a lot of details on progressions that aren’t included in many charts and would pass my ears by most likely.
It’s also interesting to look at his changes and compare to the more commonly played version.
I will need to rewatch it but I remember watching an excellent Lage Lund mymusicmasterclass video where he talks about all the subtle variations of the progression on Days of Wine and Roses; what Mancini wrote, what Wes played, what most people play, what he would do. It seems like all the NY players go really deeply into the details of these tunes. Reminded me of the Hyman book.
(No doubt the Grigson book is useful for this too, I don’t personally know it.)
While there’s no ‘correct’ set of changes in my view, the level of knowledge of the tune where you can go from the original song book changes to the more modern versions is definitely a good basis to make your own reharmonisation decisions, and be able to hear and respond to what the band is playing.
On the other hand while there’s no single set of ‘correct changes’, there’s changes that are simply wrong - a good example would be a m7 on the I in a minor key tune which you often see in charts, as well as wrong chords like playing Bbm7 Eb7 in days of wine and roses and so on. (I’ll think of a few real book examples presently, although most of these have been sorted out for the 6th edition.)Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-26-2022 at 05:54 AM.
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Originally Posted by ChazFromCali
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
..... then transposed it to compare against the Barry Galbreath melody / version. I don't worry too much about changes at first, unless something really cool jumps out at me - I just try to pin down the melody. As in Know it Cold. As in, driving to the grocery store, suddenly realize I'm unconsciously humming / whistling the tune,
Once I really have the melody I feel I can understand any re-harm. put under it. I may not like the re-harm, but I can see the "logic" (or lack of logic, lol) of it.
(lack of logic, at least in my mind)
Listening to that old version I marvel at Barry Galbreath's re-harm. Almost a WTF, how did he get that from....
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Originally Posted by ChazFromCali
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Like many others, Galbraith plays Bm7-Bbm7 in bar 6. The original had a diminished chord there after the Bm7. The parallel movement to the following Am7 is nice but it did mean changing the original melody note 'E' to 'F'.
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Originally Posted by PMB
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Originally Posted by PMB
I really like that dim. chord.
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but seriously guys - check out Dick Hyman - and tell me how to get his books
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
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thanks a whole hell of a lot Chaz - i had no idea i could download such obscure jazz texts so readily. I was right there are two books - chord changes and substitutions for 100 tunes every musician should know (!!) AND all the right changes
great foreword to the 100 tunes book - and it looks full of interesting ideas. highly recommend both.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
I 've DL'd quite a few obscure & old music instruction books from there. Get 'em while you can. Thing about the Internet is - no guarantee that website will be there tomorrow.
Debussy it? Steal that classical lick!
Today, 11:06 AM in Improvisation