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Thanks to Christian and RP! I'll get back tomorrow with a better explanation. Off to the boat, today!
Marinero
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08-01-2022 07:37 AM
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Hi, Christian and RP,
So, apologies for the confusion in my previous remarks that, perhaps, are more illustrative of decoding an ancient Babylonian text than a reasonable facsimile of the King's English. It relates to the second measure of Billie's Bounce(C) from an old cheat sheet I discovered, recently, from my Saxer Immortalis days. The changes, on guitar, I believe, are best played as predominately shell voicings(ergo my response) behind the melody.
So, First measure in 4/4: F7 played as shell 8th position 5th string bass
Second measure: Bb7-2 beats played as a partial barre 6th position/6th string then: * B dim-2 beats leading back to F7 in the 3rd measure.*
So, if you play the B dim as a strict shell voicing with the root or 3rd in the bass anywhere on the fretboard(for me) it sounds bad--either dead, disjointed, or limp . . . hmmm. However, I altered the B dim to a Bdim(second inversion) plus a dim 6 and everything was hunky dory. So, the chord is: F-B-D-G (Bdim6) with the F played on the 5th string/VIII. Ergo, first two measures:
1st measure: F7
2nd measure: Bb7-2 beats Bdim6 2 beats, then . . .
3rd measure: back to F7
Marinero
P.S. Seems like a lot of wind to say something so simple. However, sailors need wind to fly. M
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Originally Posted by Marinero
My thought is this. If the Bb7 shell (6x67xx) doesn't sound muddy, then 7x67xx (pr 7x677x won't sound muddy either. And, you can slide right into 8x78xx (F7/C). Bass line is F Bb B C. Voice leading sounds nice to me.
If I thought there was too much in the low end, I'd think about xx786x xx676x xx646x (or xx976x) to xx324x (or xx754x).
My experience is that "too much low end" is something that happens with some gear/rooms/bands and not others. Meaning, I can't tell at the start of a gig if I'm going to be comping some on the 3rd and 4th strings or if I'm going to move to 3rd and 2nd. Nobody ever told me to comp on the 3rd and 2nd strings. I suppose it's disrespectful to the big band guitarists who have gone before us. But, when the D string is making a thick unpleasant soup, it can help. That situation tends to involve a loud, busy pianist, a boomy bass sound and the aisle seat next to a trombone player.
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Originally Posted by Reg
He quickly reviews the classic changes. Reg does not dumb anything down. The lesson moves quickly, but sounds fine at 75% speed which youtube allows you to do by clicking the gear icon.
Then, in full view, he finds his chord substitutions. You see him pick extensions, like G13 and G7b13 for G7. A lot of that is judiciously picking how to extend the chords. You also see ample use of tritone subs, also with extensions. So, for C7, you may see Gb13. Sometimes he reharmonizes, like using Am7b5 D7#9 where the chart says Am7 D7.
There there are what sound like familiar chord-patterns substituting for the vanilla changes. Reg seems to have a lot of vocabulary of this type, so you get some of it from this tune and probably more of it from watching more videos.
And, he doesn't stand still. If the chart says 8 beats of something, he doesn't play 8 beats of one thing. Rather, he's likely to play two beats each of a pattern and it may have a couple of quicker movements within it.
You can also see the inversions he likes, all of which sound good. For, for example, x6776x is one I tended to overlook at VI position, although I often play the same notes in I position xx1231.
If you focus on the overall sound of the chords, the high note of each (as well as the notes underneath) trace out a melody. And, in that melody you can hear the original melody of the tune, lurking and sometimes surfacing.
Then, there's the time feel. He puts on a mambo beat. Great idea, because it contributes to the player (well, my time, he's already got it) more easily focusing on snappy, jazzy time feel, for want of a better way to describe it. To my ear, the time snaps, crackles and pops. Chico PInheiro has called this "crispy comping". And, Reg doesn't let up. There's no period of dirge -- it all pops.
I don't know how to describe the guitar tone. I think it's perfect for the application. Would he get an equally great sound out of many other guitars? Where is the sound? In his hands or in his gear? Maybe can't separate it out.
The result of all this is that he sounds just as good as a pianist, IMO and elevates our instrument. Better, really, than I had assumed this stuff could be played.
So, next I sat own with some standards I've played for years and started thinking about applying his ideas.
1. Rice Krispies comping.
2. Voicings constantly moving.
3. Voicings making a melodic statement echoing the melody of the tune.
4. Rhythmic accents in the jazz style at the appropriate moments with the right chord voicing. Ex. xx8758 used played accented as part of a turnaround.
5. Voicings to include extensions, tritone subs and chord patterns (quick sequences of chords to fill in an otherwise stagnant part of the tune).
6. Guitar tone that's perfect for this material.
So, a big THANK YOU to Reg for posting this, because this is the Real Deal.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 08-02-2022 at 07:33 PM.
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Dam thanks Rick, you actually picked up most of my tricks LOL. Maybe we should post some more examples. Marinero and Christian seen to be into comping for Billies... Blues in F and a melody that implies common Chord Patterns . I'll make a vid...
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Just a quick and dirty demo to add to the discussion for team shells based around billies bounce as Marinero asked. Nothing like recording your playing to hear all the imperfections lol.
For me comping is also short for complementing as well as accompanying
please note this is one specific way of comping that works in this specific context, and it is certainly not the alpha and omega of anything. but I think it shows where shells really excel. Or egg-shell boom ching.
i wanted to show how shells would work in comping for a solo as well, but to be honest if you don’t dig the Pete video for that I certainly won’t flatter myself that I will make the case any better lol.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-03-2022 at 02:01 PM.
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Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I sat down with Billie's Bounce and worked through an approach -- it took me longer than I expected to arrive at a more smoothly voice-led approach than I would usually play. And that's for a 12 bar blues, the most familiar progression of my life. The goal, demonstrated in Reg's video, is to be doing this on the fly at tempo. These two videos show the goal and a means of getting to it.
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So, thanks to all for your input to my earlier remarks. However, shell voicings, for me, are intended to complement a vocalist/soloist. They provide a musical foundation to the creativity of the soloist and, for me, are not intended to be a focal point or distraction to any song. So, elaborate, busy comping that detracts from the vocalist/soloist, fails miserably in its musical objective. I have usually listened to pianists/organists(Kenny Barron, Marian McPartland, Shirley Horn, Nat Cole, Jack McDuff, etc) , in the past, to learn good comping since most have an intuitive sense of accompaniment and realize, unlike some guitarists, that simple/tasty is better than busy. And, in the case of Billie's Bounce--less, for me, is better since the bass line and drums are the real foundation in that song to complement the soloist.
Marinero
P.S. Congrats to Christian and his new beautiful Semi! I think you'll find your exploration of its sound potential very rewarding.
M
P.S.S. I'd be shopping for a new black leather coat for your next gig! Chicago style!
M
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So yeah, play shells.
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
So getting back to comping... I know I've said this a lot. Shell voicings can miss just way to many layers of harmony that's going on. I mean does a bass player just play roots ? Sure there are contexts where roots work. But generally jazz isn't a worked out thing that you play over and over... and every time. Hell I like playing tunes different all the time.
It can get a little complicated.... just like you may learn how to play changes. You also need to learn how to play those same changes differently. Different styles and feels imply different harmonic frameworks...of the basic changes.
I like to play or notate out a counter melody, a harmony line with most melodies.... that will help me decide on what changes, (chord Patterns) I will use. My goal isn't to not be heard... I generally want to help who's playing head, soloing, singing etc... I still use shell voicings sometimes...
Anyway... just like learning basic changes, you can also learn different ways to play and expand those basic changes.. A simple example might be... take Billies... if you changes the tonic to Minor... a minor Blues feel.... the added or chord patterns would be different. ... That minor could also just be Alt. like F7 becoming F7alt...
It usually just comes down to where, harmonically you want to pull extensions, embellishments etc.. from and how you want to musically organize how those notes and their harmonic sources work together... and with the basic harmonic Reference. Yea...I'll try and post something... will be much easier to hear. LOL
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Originally Posted by Marinero
But unlike a guitar I can’t imagine any of those players you mention only played shell’s while comping. Barron definitely didn’t play shells backing Stan Getz. Same for the late great Shirley Horn. Both two of my favorites. I mean, just what are all of those keys for?
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Want to hear the busiest comping ever behind a singer? :P
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I never made that statement however, if you listen to Shirley Horn, her preferred accompaniments are almost always spartan--including the sparse lines of her bassist(Ed Howard?) in this song. No good musician would play shells, exclusively, since it's not musical. There is always a mix to keep the interest of the listener. Here's Shirley with her classic "If You Go Away" which illustrates my point. Nothing better!
Marinero
P.S. Was that Jamal or Mesterhazy on piano? Shirley was sick then and stopped playing piano.
M
Here's Shirley again with her sparse, tasty piano on her classic "But Beautiful."
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It’s the evolution of piano styles. Bud played a lot of left hand shells, in fact on the piano the style of comping is named after Bud; but actually often it was even simpler, a lot of tenths and sevenths. Monk too.
This was kind of a hang over from the stride era in some ways where the left hand had the accompanying role.
Later, piano chords evolved into a more colouristic approach via Ahmad, Bill, Herbie etc (somewhat simplistic history no doubt)
But to talk about piano comping exclusively is to ignore the deeper heritage of the guitar. Today guitar often imitates the piano, but this wasn’t always the case… historically Guitar is kind of it’s own thing.
Prior to about 1960 guitar comping was as much percussion as harmony. The shell voicings we talk about today sometimes called Freddie green voicings actually derive from George Van Eps and were taught to big band guitar players including Freddie Green and Allan Reuss. These were played in a rhythm guitar style, usually 4 to the bar.
This has a long tail though. The post war tradition of rhythm guitar often gets overlooked but it was common for guitarist to play that way throughout the 40s and 50s esp in lineups with piano esp with no drums. Barry Harris was a fan of this type of playing; he always encouraged me to play rhythm in sessions as often there was no drums (problem is I couldn’t do the improv class then haha.)
I think we hear a lot of that in Peter’s duo playing. Jim Hall, his teacher was a wonderful rhythm player even though he’s better known for his piano style comping.
Interestingly a lot of modern guitar players can be heard imitating quite a traditional left hand/right hand jazz piano thing in situations where there’s no piano - shells punctuating solo lines. This is kind of an evolution from what Barney Kessel did so well, of course.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-06-2022 at 04:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by Marinero
Here’s my favorite SH album. From 1987, in typical SH slow groove, Jobim’s Quiet Nights. The chords!!! I had to transcribe this one!
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Hi, B,
They can't teach that in music class. . . it's in the genes.
Marinero
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Originally Posted by Marinero
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The big band players in the 30s and 40s were in awe of Van Eps.
I studied with one, Sid Margolis. The chords he taught me for comping were the same as in the Mel Bay book on the subject (something like Orchestral Chord System). He called them "muted string chords" because the 5th and 1st strings were not played. So it would be, say, 3x343x for a basic G7. R735.
Years later, I learned 3rds and 7ths from Warren Nunes.
I was certainly aware that you could play R37, but I was never taught it formally.
Maybe every other big band player used and taught shells, but in my little corner of that world, it didn't come up that way.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 08-07-2022 at 09:55 PM.
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Yea... I'm stealing the basic arrangement for performance... Never really put much into tune Quiet Nights... was almost boring etc...
But that performance fits right into my style, I love V II's and raising the level of the Music, LOL forms... that works live and can go where the night leads...LOL Always need another Ballad...
Thanks for posting...
Henriksen Blu 6 w/ gig bag
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