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Hey musicians... The most used chord notation system used is; " Standard Chord Symbol Notation ", by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer, from the early 70's. Shur and most of the fake books use it, most music programs and Keyboards also use it. The only bad thing is that most of the use of Dom. #5 chords are really b13, not all. Go to ; http:docs.solfege.org:81/3.14/C/scales/modes.html , for construction and names of most of the scales and modes. There's a lot more to just knowing the notes, but it's a start...Reg
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02-10-2010 12:16 PM
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In college theory books one is instructed that the 13 of b13 resolves down to the root of the chord that is being tonicized, which is a movement by leap. And if you're talking about a minor key the b13 ocurrs diatonically.
If you use the rule that tones resolve in the direction of their inflection then a #5 would resolve upwards, if it's on a V chord then up to the third in a major key.
But what about a minor key, V7#5 is common in minor keys at least in jazz. For instance A7#5 resolving to Dm. That sharp five smoothly becomes a common tone with the F of the Dm chord. No movement there at all. Since it's not resolving like a 13th then I believe #5 is the correct way to notate it.
And how about a 13th chord, A13 resolving to Dmaj7. Most players retaing the F# as a common tone to both chords. So they're not resolving the 13th as theory dictates. But certainly the proper lead sheet chord symbol is A13 or A7(13), right?
I think the main concern when writing lead sheet chord symbols is making it as easy to read and play the correct notes as possible. For instance, (still in the key of D), you'd never right Gr+6 as a chord symbol unless you wanted to get wacked over the head with a guitar by the guitar player... you'd simple write Bb7 instead and the correct notes would be played.
For the same reason you'd write A7#5 instead of A7(b13), it is what people are use to seeing and therefore it makes it easier to read and play.
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Great points about voice leading, the resolution of a note is great but what about resolution of chord function. In your example A7b13 going to Dmin., is from either Harmonic or Molodic Min., right? Keep it simple. Fill out the rest of notes for each chord and give them a name; A7b9,11,b13,(Harmonic), Molodic has a nat. 9 or A7alt. from 7th degree Molodic. I guess you could call C ,#5, ? sorry fep I have to go to gig, I'll finish latter tonight or in morning.... I totally dig this stuff...Reg
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Hey fep... Are your college books about voice-leading or contrapuntal practices, or notational practices... the outer voices govern harmonic direction and the inner voices secure the relationship of the chords stuff...there are suggestions as to where voices should go and common tones etc... And depending on the period there were contrapuntal rules which changed through the years... Typically resolutions of harmonic implications depend on notes played or can even just be implied. I agree for some it's easier when reading a part or some type of written music to use, for ex; C to C# to D rather than C to Db to D, even if the harmony is C-7 / F7b13 / Bbmaj7. Harmony generally deals with the vertical aspects... I'll put together a post that shows where most Dom. V chords come from, to the best of my abilities...very limited ... Best Reg
Originally Posted by Reg
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Hi Reg, I'm in the 4th semester of a 4 semester music theory course. The book we are using is 'Theory for today's musician' by Ralph Turek. Here's a sentence from the product description:
To answer your question this book includes a lot about voice-leading, a bit about contrapuntal practices, and a bit about notational practices.This unique project merges traditional topics such as part writing (pared and prioritized in light of current practice) and harmony (diatonic, chromatic, neotonal and atonal) with less traditional topics such as counterpoint and musical process, and with non-traditional topics such as popular-based song writing and harmonic principles in jazz and the blues.
Here's a bit re: the resolution of 13th chords from the text:
The other college theory text that I self studied on was Harmonic Materials in Tonal Music by Paul Harder, which was mostly about harmonic development and voice leading in 4 part choral writing.Three of the chord tones are tendency tones - the third (leading tone), the seventh, and the thirteenth. The lowered thirteenth is enharmonically the same pitch as a raised fifth. The spelling reflects the resolution and determines the analysis - V-13 or V7+. In nineteenth-century music, the thirteenth topples down to the tonic, either directly or stepwise through the fifth of the dominant.Last edited by fep; 02-11-2010 at 01:55 PM.
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Hey fep... great stuff and yes it appears to refer to old contrapuntal practice in traditional music and traditional voice leading. Hmm...I always remember the leading tone to be the 7th... And the quote "the spelling of a note reflects the resolution and determines the analysis... " that's a little scary, almost sounds like you can call a note anything you want, as long as you can explain yourself, anyway I'll research them both and get back.
Best Reg
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The leading tone is the 7th scale degree which is also the third of the dominant chord. Originally Posted by Reg
In 19th century harmony a dominant chord would generally have a dominant function.
Let's use the key of C for discussion...
G13 is a V chord in the key of C, the third of the chord G13 is a B note which is the seventh scale degree of the key of C.
Still in the key of C and you have an E7 chord which is also common in the key of C. This chord in is analyzed as a V/vi (pronounced as five of six) and is said to be tonicizing the vi chord as though for the moment the vi chord becomes the tonic. The vi is Am and the leading tone or raised 7th degree of Am is G#; G# is also the third of the E7 chord.
So I believe we are referring to the same thing.
Re: calling any note anything we want... Not quite, the analysis is after the fact and is done in the context of how the tone resolved. Therefore if a certain pitch resolves down it may be called an F natural (the b13 of an A7 chord) and if it resolves up or stays on the same pitch it may be called an E# (the sharp 5 of an A7 chord).
19th century composers notated their music that way to communicate the voice leading and their intentions harmonically. N6 (neopolitan 6), +6 (augmented 6th), and ++4 chords (doubly augmented 4th) are all examples of what to me seems like strange notation that follows these 19th century conventions of voice leading and harmony.
I believe it was all a matter of trying to classify these commonly used sounds to better understand them both analytically and aurally.Last edited by fep; 02-11-2010 at 03:19 PM.
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Hey fep... thanks for info. Are we trying to explain jazz in 19th century contrapuntal practices? I spent a lot of years teaching those principles and have a pretty good understanding, but I thought your reference books were for todays musician. We don't define harmony by voice-leading practices, different goal, different result. But I'm not devaluing the practice, but when you write changes, they should tell you a little more than just voice-leading. I believe they should tell the player where the chords from, which #5 and b13 do. As I said earlier the notation system most in use, "Standard Chord Symbol Notation" from early 70's has problems with alt. dom chords. I'm use to the system because we are stuck with it, but when a tune is in Harmonic or Molodic min. and you use #5 on the V7 chord, that's a mistake, 99% of the time, I would call it enharmonic interpretational liberties...that's fun, is that even a word. Most jazz players rarely play just the chord indicated, the better the player the less you notice it. I play gigs all the time, all types, see a lot of charts. Because of that one book, and it's one of the standards, most charts are more complex than they need to be.The next time you write a tune or just play one do a harmonic analysis of it and determine what vertical harmonic collection of notes should be used at a V7#5 chord... Don't believe every thing your told...Reg
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Reg, I guess I'm just trying to understand current practices in terms of what I know and how I think about it.
I look at it in two ways; 1) lead sheet symbols from the practical perspective of getting the piece performed properly (whether I'm the performer or the composer and 2) analyzying harmonic movement to further my composing chops.
For analyzying harmonic movement I don't use chord symbols, I use Roman Numerals which mostly borrows from my college music theory courses although I'm trying to transition to what I believe is the better system for Jazz (i.e. IIImi instead or iii etc.).
I am thinking about your posts and your approach.
If I understand your approach, you look at the underlying mode... say harmonic minor:
C D Eb F G Ab B C D Eb F G Ab to be 1 thru 13
And if you have a chord spelled G F B Eb Ab that resolves to Cm, that chord would be diatonic to the harmonic minor scale and therefore is a G7(b9b13) and would not be a G7(#5b9).
I'm not sure that notating the chord in the unconventional G7(b9b13) provides me with any additional information.
I do know when I see G7(#5b9) I can quickly grab that chord in several areas of the neck and in different inversions.
When I see G7(b9b13) there is an additional step I have to perform as a sight reader, that being to translate it to something I know which is "that's the same notes enharmonically as a G7(#5b9) and I know how to play that chord several ways so..."
Possible I'm not understanding this fully. I suppose another difference between G7b9b13 and G7#5b9 could be the way you would place the upper extensions (maybe more practical on the piano though). Is it more common to place a b13 above the b9 in pitch whereas you'd place the #5 below the b9 in pitch?
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Hey fep ...Are you alright with Cmaj.7b6 , 3rd degree HM, or Cmaj7b5b6, MM, or Amin#5, 1st degree HM , Dmin7#11,bb13, 2nd degree HM.
What are all the notes in your G7#5b9; if from harmonic min.? No tricks just notes and degree, Ex. G would be scale degree 1, Ab would be scale degree b2 , B - 3, C - 4, D - 5, Eb - b6, F-b7, build the chord in thirds, 1, 3, 5, b7, b9, 11, b13. Why would you call this chord a G7#5b9, when the 5th is natural. Have you ever gone through this process, if not , I think it would help your understanding of where chords come from. I think this is a good discourse and I believe were both trying to understand. Yea... Roman Numerals work and have for a long time, that's how I transpose when playing at gigs, at least for the tunes I remember... and definitely IIImin verse iii. #5 to me implies Whole tone, Augmented or a synthetic harmonic areas or even the old neapolitan 3rd degree. Reg
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Cmaj.7b6, Cmaj7b5b6, Amin#5, Yes I'd use those. If those are the specific notes you want then those are the best names I can think of.Hey fep ...Are you alright with Cmaj.7b6 , 3rd degree HM, or Cmaj7b5b6, MM, or Amin#5, 1st degree HM , Dmin7#11,bb13, 2nd degree HM.
Dmin7#11bb13 as the 2nd degree of HM... Is that a trick question? The 2nd degree of HM should have a b5. bb13 is so mind bending, I think you'd be best just notating this one in standard notarion, I'd be able to figure out how to play it quicker that way.
I can tell you what the notes of G7#5b9 are but...What are all the notes in your G7#5b9; if from harmonic min.?
Where I'm having a disconnect is in your assertion that chords should be named based on their underlying mode. Chord names are derived from the major scale not some other mode or scale. Even if the chord is derived from something other than Ionian, like HM, the lead sheet naming convention is based on the major scale. At least that is how it is explained in every book I've read on this, and that would be numerous books.
It's not a perfect system. But it is the convention.
G7#5b9, the notes for the guitar player are G F B D# Ab - it's best for the guitar player to leave the 5th out. For the bass player? Well it's not a perfect system. A good bass player will get it right though.Last edited by fep; 02-12-2010 at 11:10 AM.
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Cmaj.7b6, Cmaj7b5b6, Amin#5, Yes I'd use those. If those are the specific notes you want then those are the best names I can think of.Hey fep ...Are you alright with Cmaj.7b6 , 3rd degree HM, or Cmaj7b5b6, MM, or Amin#5, 1st degree HM , Dmin7#11,bb13, 2nd degree HM.
Dmin7#11bb13 as the 2nd degree of HM... Is that a trick question. That's horrible for several reasons. The 2nd degree of HM should have a b5 which is the same pitch as a #11. But given that your Dmin7#11bb13 has a natural 5, that's the same pitch as the bb13.
I can tell you what the notes of G7#5b9 are but...What are all the notes in your G7#5b9; if from harmonic min.?
Where I'm having a disconnect is in your assertion that chords should be named based on their underlying mode. Chord names are derived from the major scale not some other mode or scale. Even if the chord is derived from something other that Ionian, like HM, the lead sheet naming convention is based on the major scale.
It's not a perfect system. But it is the convention.
G7#5b9, the notes for all but the bass player are G F B D# Ab. For the bass chart you may need to notate the chord symbol as G7#5b9 or G7b9 or simple G7 depending on what you're after - however with a good bass player it wouldn't matter except maybe for the first time thru.Last edited by fep; 02-12-2010 at 11:59 AM.
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If you used the underlying scale or mode for your naming convetion...
Then why would you use bb13 to get the Bbb note in your Dm7#11bb13? Since your naming that chord based on the HM, the 13th of that scale is Bb, wouldn't you just flat it once to lower it to the pitch a half step below Bb.
This illustrates that what you are doing is using both the major scale and the harmonic minor scale to name your chord. Your mixing two ideas into one, that will just lead to confusion.
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Hey fep that was simple a mistake, I was trying to imply the b5 of chord of 2nd degree of HN., the bb13 should have been bbb13. The 2nd degree chord is II-7b5b9 or D-7b5b9, my point is you would generally never notate a chord tone using a different chord tone; bbb13 for b5. Sorry for slip. No to the mixing of two ideas .... Reg Originally Posted by fep
Last edited by Reg; 02-12-2010 at 03:46 PM.
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Reg, I do consider you the teacher on this subject and I'm the student. Perhaps a particularly difficult or stuborn student (whose head is about to explode).
fep
the one who aspires to write big band charts
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I think the conclusion to be drawn from this thread is not to worry too much over chord symbols. Chord symbols often don't show the whole harmonic story, but they're meant to be shorthand.
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No... it's not the conclusion to be drawn from this thread... That's part of the problem... most don't worry about what the chord symbol implies. Originally Posted by rill
Chord symbols are all you need to understand what's implied harmonically. The melody may reinforce or act independent...
Chord symbols imply where the chord is from, what basic harmonic concept is being implied and generally help the player reading through know where the basic harmonic concept begins... the starting point.
The other problem... most players don't understand... It's almost like a giant snow ball... now many teachers don't understand, and the snow ball keeps getting bigger... Reg
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On the topic of clarification , the issue of the b13 versus the #5 is one that I feel really needs some clarification.
I see a lot of talk about b13th chords here in this forum and lately in some other forums
I never call a b13 unless I want an 11th in the chord. To me building a chord is like climbing stairs. Each step brings you to the next place. I don't make a habit out of jumping steps when I climb stairs and I tend not to think that way with chords.
If the the other notes in the chord only go to a 9th, why skip it and go to a 13th? (The exception being of course, if the natural 5th is present)
Even in the infamous ALT chord people tend to call out #11/b13 but really, one of them has to be some sort of 5th in order to make even a basic seventh chord. As it stands as written following regular theory rules of chord construction the #11/b13 could have a natural 5th in it
To me it makes more sense to handle the simple details like what to do with the 5th before moving to 11ths / 13th.
To that end I have always considered the Alt7 to be a chord with both #/b 9ths and 5ths. This eliminantes any possibility of natural 5ths, unwanted 11ths or 13ths. 1 3 b5 #5 7 b9 #9.
In my experience the only time I have really seen an 11th and 13th in the same chord name is for a 13#11.
I do expect to see conflicting opinions on this
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I think it was on TDPRI lately (but it could have been here) where someone was arguing that an unaltered dominant or major 13th does not have the 11th in it. Originally Posted by JohnW400
I didn't want to take side there because I could see both sides -- on one side you are climbing the stairs: 9th, 11th, 13th; on the otherside you are relying more on your ear.
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But its quite common to have unaltered 13 chords in which you wouldn't play the 11th (4th), because the 3rd is present. Originally Posted by JohnW400
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Yes. And not every 13 has a ninth either. They exist and are theoretically part of the chord. Look in all the books. They all note that normally the 11th is omitted on a major 13th. Then the better written books go on to give an exception.
You see just because the 11th is not normally played in major13 does not mean that it doesn't exist in that chord. Also that it isn't more widely used as you change quality to Dominant to minor to mi7b5 etc.
Don't forge that some 13th voicing's omit both the 9th and 11th. These are probably the ones they used to write as G7/6 (G x F B E x).
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Good points... but in jazz, whether we're using chord symbols as reference for comping or soloing... chord symbols have more implications than simply what notes to voice. If your going to play jazz, you need to be aware of those implication. (if you want to sound like a jazz player)
When playing jazz, you can't simply use basic traditional chord construction, building chords in 3rds. John's step like approach is great if your learning basic harmony and trying to become aware of, as I said basic chord construction. Jazz doesn't work that way. There are too many options going on all the time. As I keep trying to explain the basic rules don't cover. There's much more going on, there is always more than one choice.
General chord construction and traditional notation is for memorize and perform... see the notation, read the notation and play the notation... jazz doesn't work that way.
When you play jazz... when someone notates changes, their giving you the basic harmonic approach used.
Look at what the Altered note collection actually spells...
1,b9,b3,b11,b5,b13,b7... a -7b5 chord with b9,b11,b13. We chose to use call that collection of pitches a Dominant chord, generally because it covers what we as jazz players hear, Blue notes, MM and our traditional use of Harmonic Minor V7b9b13 chord.
We generally don't use MM and blue note harmony in the same manor as traditional functional harmony.
When G7b13 is notated... it doesn't mean simply play the complete chord built in 3rds, with a b13. It can mean a number of collection of pitches or sources where the chord can come from. The one thing it does mean... 1,3,b7 and a b13... the context, what we like to say will determine the rest of the pitches... will help, but also there are choices as to which source we choose to pull from when we apply a harmonic approach.
Because Modal Interchange is always going on and because there is always more than one harmonic practice going on... the chord tones or extensions, how ever you want to relate to complete pitch collection at any given moment... are always in a state of movement... that's why it's difficult to notate. I use altered with added natural 5th all the time... and many other combinations...
The voice leading aspects of notation are just different in jazz... #5 doesn't always mean resolve up. When I'm writing music for traditional players... I need to be aware where the notes are going, is the #5 or b13 part of a chromatic approach structure, so in that case I want the note to be notated as so, to reflect where it's going. There is a slight difference between a chromatic approach as compared to a diatonic or other types of functional movement. That's a completely different subject... that would be a simple application of a harmonic concept, nothing to do with playing jazz or comping. I want the player to know where the note is going... or make the line easier to read and the section to sound like what I composed.
If your going to comp or solo in a jazz style you need to become aware of the other concepts going on all the time... b13 is not #5.
And I know part of the problem is when you look at most books... you won't get the complete picture, and many teachers are not aware and as I said it's like a snow ball that's hard to stop... RegLast edited by Reg; 11-23-2011 at 11:50 AM.
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There is an awkwardness about applying a 7 letter system to name 12 notes in more chromatic contexts.
It is no surprise that post tonalists generally analyze with a number system.
Ex. 1
CDEbFGABC
B7alt BEbADGCF (accurate but harder to recognize 7th chord) or BD#ADGCF (better but contains both major and minor 3rd)
1----3----b7--#9--b13--b9--b5
B---D#---A---Cx----G---C----F
It gets complicated. I feel ambivalent about b5 b13 b9 #9 or b5 #5 b9 #9 or #9 spelled as m10.
I try to avoid double sharps and flats if possible.
Ex. 2
Each augmented chord represents 3 different augmented chords.
C+---CEG#
E+---EG#B#
Ab+--AbCE
The whole tone scale is parent to all 3 but will only spell 1 of 3 correctly.
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There are names that identify a scale source.
There are names that indicate direction of voice led line.
There are names that are accurate to the derivative scale.
There are names that indicate just the basic chord with no further thought.
Furthermore:
There are chart writers that want to make clear their exact intentions.
There are chart writers who just want to do a minimal sketch and let the players freely create.
It is clear that writing haphazard chord symbols is not the best path.
It is a fact that we will read many less than optimum charts (including mistakes) and still have to make the music speak.
Reg,
Are there other driving forces beyond scale source and voice leading direction that you feel to be useful in choosing chord symbols?Last edited by bako; 11-23-2011 at 02:36 PM.
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hey Bako... I'm talking from a jazz perspective... not an open book. There is a basic collection of material that is used and implied. When your outside of that box, you generally spell it out. It's not complicated. As I was saying... the only difficult part is.... there is usually always more that one source going on at any given moment, and so the reference can change... so when you notate... you try and leave those options open. Generally jazz players know, or will hear instantly and recognize. And what's even better... when we don't know.... we can adjust in real time as though we did. Somewhat like sight reading, your always ahead... so it's really not that big of a deal. To answer your question... Scale or harmonic source and melodic concepts basically cover... The voice leading can influence a concept, but usually isn't the concept. But could be in ... line cliches, pedals etc...
Hey Eunice834... yea that's important... Chord function resolution... as I was saying one of the four basic characteristics of jazz. How or what system or governing principles we use to define...Chord resolution.
And your right about possible sources... as you implied there are many more and they can be combined... but when I notate b13... I'm implying a certain set of sources, if I notated #5, that would be completely different set of sources and approaches... Of course... most of us will hear what's implied... so who really cares. But when we're simply talking about music... we might as well get it right. We have all the time we need. Reg
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