Joe Pass Guitar Chords - why D#?

[dconeill]

I'm working through the book Joe Pass Guitar Chords (Alfred, 1986). In the section under Chord Forms labelled "Seventh", where he described dominant chords, he often specified D# in a chord with root G.

Anybody know why? That is, why call it a #5 instead of a b13 in a dominant chord?

[Tal_175]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. These chords are often notated as G7#5 in real books. It doesn't mean augmented, it can be a G7b13 in a minor cadence. Enharmonic spellings of chords doesn't seem to be an issue that has been treated pedantically in jazz.

[christianm77]

I don't honestly think Joe would have given a shit.

[paulkogut]

For an 'old school' player like Joe, jazz was always more of a 'by ear' than 'on the page/follow the theory' approach. He probably played some examples, talked about them a little bit, and someone else helped write it down and edit it. There's plenty of room for inconsistencies.


For me, if what's 'going on' with a G7 chord relates to a C melodic/ harmonic minor or Ab melodic minor,, I'll write a lot of Eb's, if the G7 relates to G whole tone , I'll write more D#'s

PK

[christianm77]

From a practical point of view, you got to get used to seeing the same stuff written in different ways. Berklee has a standardised chord symbol notation, but you see all sorts of shit in books and big band charts.

[GTRMan]

You'll notice that he didn't name any of those chords. They are all Dom7 chords, many with tensions and altered tensions. I penciled the fuller names in my book for my own edification.

Generally speaking, G7#5 or G7b5 are shorthand for implied bigger chords, but expressed in fewer voices, i.e. 4 voices. So D# is fine.

[ragman1]

why D#?

Depends on the context, like CM7-C#o-Dm7 going up and Em7-Ebo-Dm7 going down.

I knew it as G7#5 for years and years. Only relatively recently has it been G7b13. The book was published in 1986. There you go.

If the key is G, and the chord is GM7#5, it's bound to be a D#, not an Eb.

[grahambop]

Whenever I hear someone play a G7#5 when it should have been a G7b13 it makes my ears hurt.

[christianm77]

I suppose technically a G7#5 could also have a 13 as well....

[christianm77]

But then altered scale enharmony is all messed up to begin with so *meh*

[ragman1]

I suppose technically a G7#5 could also have a 13 as well....

13#5 is kosher. But nothing to do with what we're talking about, of course

[ragman1]

7b6, on the other hand...

[rpjazzguitar]

I thought G7b13 has both a D and an Eb, with Eb being played about an octave higher. Tough to play on guitar, easier on keys.

G7#5 raises the D, so there's no D, only D#.

As a practical matter I can't recall a situation where this made any difference, at least, not to my ears.

[dconeill]

I thought G7b13 has both a D and an Eb, with Eb being played about an octave higher. Tough to play on guitar, easier on keys.

G7#5 raises the D, so there's no D, only D#. ...

Since the Pass book is about guitar chord fingerings, most of the chords that are extended beyond the 7th leave some notes out. So, some of the chords that spurred my query contain, as shown in the Pass book:
G F B D# Ab
G F B D# A#
G F B D#
F B D# G
F B D# G Db
(G) F B D# A# (root is not shown in chord fingering)
and several others.

A pedantically complete (my term) G7b13 chord would contain G B D F A C Eb. So Rpjazzguitar's observation is correct, but few or none of the chords shown in the Pass book are pedantically complete - they leave out some pitches so that the fingerings are possible and playable.

When naming such "incomplete" chords, my usual practice is to name it by root, quality, and highest diatonic extension, and then indicate alterations from diatonic; e.g., G9 b13 or G13 #11. (If the composer meant a chord with a particular extension but not with any intermediate extensions, the "add" nomenclature comes into play.) So even if a chord as played was missing certain pitches between the root and the highest extension it would still carry the name. Maybe my usual practice is acceptable, maybe not; I'd be happy to accept comments on that.

As someone suggested, the likely answer to my question is that the D# came from the transcriber's individual practices and did not necessarily carry some implicit music-theoretical baggage.

And then,

... As a practical matter I can't recall a situation where this made any difference, at least, not to my ears.

This seems sensible - i.e., maybe dconeill should just calm down a bit and deal with the world as it exists, not as he'd like it to be.

[christianm77]

I thought G7b13 has both a D and an Eb, with Eb being played about an octave higher. Tough to play on guitar, easier on keys.

G7#5 raises the D, so there's no D, only D#.

As a practical matter I can't recall a situation where this made any difference, at least, not to my ears.

I think in its most common voicings one would tend to omit the D? I mean I certainly do.

In terms of scales that parent that chord, that version of G7b13 belongs to the C minor key, so I think of it as a minor key dominant. But the G7b5b13 would be the G altered dominant. That chord could be patented by the whole tone or altered scale. But it is certainly non diatonic, while the G7b13 is diatonic to C minor.

So then there’s the whole cross relation thing with #9s that are actually b10s; so for instance in Blue Bossa where the natural form of the minor Is played over the G7b13 that is derived from the harmonic. Modern theory books tend to interpret that as a #9 and might talk about the altered scale, but BB is a clearly diatonic melody .... (minor scales on dominant chords are common in jazz of course, but not only in the blues.)

And that raises the issue of the fact that no one uses the superlocrian spelling
C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb
but instead the dominant spelling:
C Db D# E Gb Ab Bb

which obviously breaks the alphabet rule unlike any of the other melodic minor modes, but no one wants be dealing with a flat 4.

So yeah it’s a bit of a mess.

So if I could hazard a guess as to the 7#5’s origin I’d say that it might be whole tone, which was the most popular altered dominant scale during the pre war era.
C D E F# G# Bb
but you could just as well spell it with a b13 as it’s not diatonic.

[christianm77]

But (and I'm aware that no-one one in their right mind goes a crap haha) a spelling of the whole tone scale that goes
C D E F# G# A#
would make a lot of sense for its application on French Sixth (augmented sixth chords), such as we find in pre war jazz very frequently:

Ab7(#11) C
Ab7(#11) G7 Cm

Here, enharmony conscious classical musicians would spell the chords
Ab C D F#
As the outer interval Ab-F# is an augmented sixth that expands to an octave G-G', which you find in both the C and G7 chords.
G C E G

In common practice harmony, flat notes such as the minor sevenths typically contract, for instance in a V7-I cadence.

But obviously no jazz musicians care about that. And why should they (sub the second one for a minor II-V-I when soloing BTW, that's what Barry would do.)

[GTRMan]

The way Dick Grove explained the "V+7 chord in minor" is that the specification of b13 omits the "D" in favor of the D#.

But specifying it as "b13" instead of "+5" or "#5" implies at least one other altered tension (one or more of the following: b9, #9 or +11). In that case it may be best to list those as oppose to assume. If none are there, make it Dom7+5 or Dom7#5.

Several chord scales are possible, depending on which altered tensions are included.


Grove was an arranger and pianist, not a guitarist.

[rpjazzguitar]

On the scale issue.

G7b13 is G B D F A C Eb, if you include the 9th and 11th. That's Cmelmin.

But, often, you hear altered ninths with a b13, so it's G B D F Ab Bb Eb. Reordering, G Ab Bb B D Eb F. That's not a commonly named scale. Lower the D to Db and it's alt.

But this is not really practical.

I think the 7b13 designation is to make sure that note, the Eb in G7b13, is in the upper octave. Not that I've ever thought to play G7#5 any differently. Or maybe it's because the underlying scale is some kind of Cm, in which case you are really lowering the E, not raising the D.

[christianm77]

The way Dick Grove explained the "V+7 chord in minor" is that the specification of b13 omits the "D" in favor of the D#.

But specifying it as "b13" instead of "+5" or "#5" implies at least one other altered tension (one or more of the following: b9, #9 or +11). In that case it may be best to list those as oppose to assume. If none are there, make it Dom7+5 or Dom7#5.

Several chord scales are possible, depending on which altered tensions are included.

Grove was an arranger and pianist, not a guitarist.

A G7#5 would be in that case, diatonic to the C minor key. So, a diatonic option, but in CST terms that's G mixolydian b13, or G mixolydian b9 b13? But I can see Grove's logic.

Something else to be needlessly pedantic about, your use of #11's

• #11 would imply half-whole harmony, so a natural 13th and 5th
• In the context of a b13 I would expect to see b5

But, that's the modern standardised Berkleeoid system. In older and less standardised resources, such as Big Band pads, you see other stuff.

For instance, I'm not sure Coltrane. McCoy Tyner or Wayne Shorter would have differentiated between a 7#11 or 7b5 a lot of the time.... in terms of practical voicings they are often identical, and those players had a penchant for using diminished scale or other options such as blues phrases than the more vanilla melodic minor chord scales that have become standard.

For instance McCoy Tyner plays half-whole rather than the more obvious and vanilla lydian dominant on the IV7#11 chord in the Wayne tune Deluge.

Speaking of Wayne, Juju is a good tune incidentally for that 7#5 into whole tone tonality. Real Book and iReal has that symbol, B7#5. I wonder what Wayne had?

But in the end... chord symbols are an imperfect system. I think one might be forgiven at first for thinking jazz is the study of chord symbols, and it really isn't.. they have kind of outgrown their role as a shorthand....

[dconeill]

Thanks to all who chimed in. Lots to chew on here. But I've calmed down a little now.

[GTRMan]

A G7#5 would be in that case, diatonic to the C minor key. So, a diatonic option, but in CST terms that's G mixolydian b13, or G mixolydian b9 b13? But I can see Grove's logic.

Something else to be needlessly pedantic about, your use of #11's

• #11 would imply half-whole harmony, so a natural 13th and 5th
• In the context of a b13 I would expect to see b5

But, that's the modern standardised Berkleeoid system. In older and less standardised resources, such as Big Band pads, you see other stuff.

For instance, I'm not sure Coltrane. McCoy Tyner or Wayne Shorter would have differentiated between a 7#11 or 7b5 a lot of the time.... in terms of practical voicings they are often identical, and those players had a penchant for using diminished scale or other options such as blues phrases than the more vanilla melodic minor chord scales that have become standard.

For instance McCoy Tyner plays half-whole rather than the more obvious and vanilla lydian dominant on the IV7#11 chord in the Wayne tune Deluge.

Speaking of Wayne, Juju is a good tune incidentally for that 7#5 into whole tone tonality. Real Book and iReal has that symbol, B7#5. I wonder what Wayne had?

But in the end... chord symbols are an imperfect system. I think one might be forgiven at first for thinking jazz is the study of chord symbols, and it really isn't.. they have kind of outgrown their role as a shorthand....

Grove had the IV9(+11) as one “chord family” in minor, and the V+7 or V7(b13) as another.

[Cunamara]

G7b13 and G7#5 are different chords, as identified above, the harmonic limitations of the guitar notwithstanding. The bass player and pianist are going to treat them differently, so we need to understand the difference. Otherwise we're going to sound wrong.

Ditto the G7b5 and the G7#11.

[christianm77]

Grove had the IV9(+11) as one “chord family” in minor, and the V+7 or V7(b13) as another.

That makes sense.

[christianm77]

Otherwise we're going to sound wrong.

OMG! Not sound wrong. I mean if we don't have a theory of jazz soduku we might actually have to start swinging and using our ears and coming up with melodies.

The recorded history of jazz is full of harmonic clashes, and absolutely no-one cares, why? Because those people are playing awesome music. The same pianist can play a 9 in one hand a b9 in the other, and NOBODY EVEN NOTICES. (My favourite is Lester Young playing B on the C7 in Lady Be Good....)

Chord symbols are like tax returns or the bible - not to be taken literally. The way chord symbols have taken over jazz education and harmony is a classic example of mission creep. What started off as a sketch of the harmony is now seen as the harmony itself.

I suppose a lot of jazz students are frightened of improvisation and the capacity for playing 'wrong notes', because they've been taught to.

Luckily there is a good cure for this - go and check out what the musicians actually recorded.

[GTRMan]

G7b13 and G7#5 are different chords, as identified above, the harmonic limitations of the guitar notwithstanding. The bass player and pianist are going to treat them differently, so we need to understand the difference. Otherwise we're going to sound wrong.

Ditto the G7b5 and the G7#11.

I take your statement to mean that the bassist will play the Perfect 5th on the G7b13 chord?


What voicings should the pianist and guitarist play for that symbol?