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Ok, of course many can (but just choose not to), however, I've noticed that jazz guitar comping with a lot of players is about complex rhythms and lots of modern voicings (subs, extensions, quartal etc) which is great except that a lot of players sound like ass if you try to get them to play very basic FG style comping for Swing type tunes etc. I would have thought this style of comping should be easy for most players, but it turns out that it's actually quite hard to sound "good" at it. Any thoughts on this?
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09-08-2020 02:53 AM
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One tends to sound good doing stuff one does a lot.
It is hard to do well. A lot of people make basic mistakes with it - accenting 2 and 4 too much and so on. Or they may not be used to the type of voicings. Or they may revert to gypsy jazz. It should be possible to play rhythm in a smooth, straightahead way as well as the la pompe style.
TBH if you are playing with another guitarist it’s often an idea to lay off comping with any notes on the B string and to keep it simple... (as Lage Lund puts it jazz guitarists tend to play their voicings too high); a lot of players seem to struggle with this because they have been taught that jazz = extensions. In fact you should be listening to the whole music; if you play a triad or a simple voicing you allow the soloist to play extensions and so on if they wish.
To me the ‘FG’ thing (which is actually nothing like how Freddie actually played but that’s another story) is just manifestation of basic unfussy comping that expresses the groove and supports the soloist. That smoothly gradiates into styles which don’t have a chord on every beat. You can turn this into a syncopated 2 feel, or more embellished styles without changing the voicings or the basic ethos.Last edited by christianm77; 09-08-2020 at 04:06 AM.
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I was saying it here many times, based on personal experience. Many straight-ahead or 'contemporary' players suck at it. Right now it's a niche style. Only if you are a guitarist on a swing scene, especially playing for dancers, you are good at it.
I'm pretty sure they don't teach it at colleges, and I know many teachers discourage this type as passe. Like, don't play like that, we are long way pass that, it's laughable. That sort of attitude.
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Strange. So nobody plays guitar in high school jazz band anymore? Not that that would entirely be the solution.
Though it's not necessary, to my ears for that style you kind of need something acoustic. Everybody just plays an ibanez artstar or whatever these days.Last edited by arielcee; 09-08-2020 at 06:04 AM.
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I met some kids who do, and I had to show them the basics. It's not that easy. And who are the teachers in high school jazz bands? Horn players of course! They dont know how to show that to a kid, and maybe they not too concerned with it either.
Originally Posted by arielcee
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Well I think also part of the thing is that it isn’t so much a taught thing as something you pick up. No one’s ever taught me rhythm guitar, and I don’t think I’ve ever sat down and practiced rhythm guitar much, but really learned it by playing with other musicians and listening to the music. And I think it’s worked out to be one of my strong suits.
Its widely understood that formal jazz education tends to focus on easily quantifiable elements of the music - voicings, pitch choices and so on. Rhythm guitar on the other hand is very much about tacit, embodied and experiential knowledge.
If you aren’t doing the gigs you won’t have the feel. If you play chopsy fusion all the time, it’s likely your reggae skank will be lacking, for example.
There are a lot of factoids in jazz education about comping as well ‘don’t double the root’ and so on which actually only apply to a certain style of doing things in a certain type of ensemble. Young players can get a bit confused by these apparently authoritative rules (and yes I know why they are used.)
i think it is a general failure of jazz education to be super specific about Latin feels etc but never address different types of swing feel and how the music evolved in that sense. Young musicians can get the impression that swing feels are all the same, and not be sensitive to the specifics of the situation; not every gig is a jazz club, not every situation is about interactive comping.
Again I think that’s best learned on the bandstand, but teachers could prepare students better perhaps.Last edited by christianm77; 09-08-2020 at 05:36 AM.
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I'm teaching myself Freddie Green style comping right now (concurrently with other general across-the-board beginner jazz guitar stuff). I don't think there's really an excuse of paucity of instruction and examples out there.
The best resource I've found is Vinnie Raniolo's 'Rhythm guitar on 3 strings' DVD/download. There's a taster video available to watch for free on YouTube. He's able to play a very straight 4-to-the-bar seemingly with only a very very subtle emphasis and yet it still sounds irresistibly swinging. I also have the 'Swing and Big-Band Guitar' book which is very comprehensive, kind of a Bible for this, and has audio examples. Both of those probably shoot themselves in the foot for having not very sexy titles, so a young hotshot shredder guitarist is probably a bit less likely to investigate them.
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Whether you're a player just starting out or a player who makes a profession at it, you play what is an expression of who you are, things you like and the music that creates a dialogue; with others you play with, with the environment your music is a part of, with your own soul. Princeplanet, maybe it's a part of your soul, so by all means, work at it as much as you need to and make it a part of your style. It's your time and your life. If you get really good at it, you'll be happy.
But for a player existing in a contemporary environment, what forces and inspirations provide the impetus for all the time and discipline needed to actually develop the admittedly formidable proficiency needed to become "decent" no less good? Time is a valuable resource and everyone wrestles with the big question: How do I spend my time the best? Very rarely is the answer "Practice something you're not going to use."
Jim Hall had this in the Freddie Green lexicon because it was real to him when he was learning and he held onto it as a part of his attitude. He crafted a style with that the same way Bill Frisell now includes surf, Beatles and Bacharach as a part of his attitude; it speaks to him.
Does this music speak to you? How much do you love it? Do you love it enough to commit to the stylistic development of your own playing and the time needed to master it? Will this enhance or preclude the ability to find playing partners in your quest? Is your time on the instrument primarily a mission to recreate a respectful fascination with a bygone era, or is the guitar a means by which you can look to the present in your life and find expression in crafting something that exists now and has never been done before?
These are deep questions that speak to every player who realizes time is a whole lot more than four to the bar.
Who are you and why do you play? How willing are you to find the mastery of music beyond the forms of genre (to become good) and what is the lexicon, syntax and semantic content that makes that possible?
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I'm working through the Swing and Big Band book, too. There's a great video with Vinnie and Evan Christopher that is worth the time too: Originally Posted by Matt Milton
Regards
Derek
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Well. I'm not about to drop everything and just focus on being a Swing specialist to the exclusion of all the other styles I like to dabble in, but I think I can sound passable at very basic FG 4 to the bar playing trying to make every chord sound just right (tone, duration, swing feel etc). Sure, it uses a different muscle set and requires a different kind of strength and endurance, but I'm just surprised to find these things so lacking in most players if they dare to expose their shortcomings in this way (of course, many won't!).
I dunno, I just thought "good" players would have enough technique to turn their hand to Swing, Bossa, Funk , whatever, without sounding like rank beginners
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Vinnie is the man for this. Super nice guy too. He's a machine on rhythm. When I jammed with him I realized I'm not as good as I thought I am for swing lol. And he doesn't do anything complicated, it just the feel, it's right! Originally Posted by Matt Milton
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Hippy. :-) Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
It's all about what you end up doing on gigs for money day in day out haha.
It's probably not going to be contemporary jazz. It might be pop/rock, show work. Or in my case swing dance gigs.
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I guess a big part of it is, that you need an acoustic guitar to do it right. Ideally it's also set up especially for playing rhythm. I guess that's too much of a threshold for many.
I'm 27 and most players i know are not that much into swing, and so they probably aren't too interested in keeping a guitar just for that style.
Paul
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Whoa whoa whoa whoa. I just have to clarify a point that gets often lost in the cracks in these discussions. Originally Posted by Webby
Right, OK rhythm guitar is NOT necessarily a 'swing thing' as in 1930s/40s thing. This is a bit of a misconception.
Even Freddie Green's best known style is from the 50s Basie albums and not how he was playing in the late 30s.
Check this out at 1:48
Bop rhythm guitar, NOT swing. Recorded in the '60s.
Tal Farlow
Ray Crawford Jr
Herb Ellis
Jim Hall (early)
Billy Bean
Russell Malone
right? (and Vinnie above.)
They all played electric archtops, L5's, ES175s that type of thing. Roll down the volume and play precussively but don't BANG
If you want to play swing (as in swing era jazz), that's a heavier feel, and acoustic sounds best. In that case I would advise just doing it on a standard flat-top until you are sure that you want to buy a Gypsy box or something. But that's a different feel.
Not many people play a smooth bop style rhythm guitar, there's a lot of 'gypsy jazz style' rhythm which is not the same thing at all.Last edited by christianm77; 09-08-2020 at 08:46 AM.
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Maybe the ones you think are lacking are after something you don't feel. Mary Halvorsen is going to have a different set of values that determine, and accentuate the players she's playing with. Ed Bikert's time is very good, but it's not about jumping on or to the beat. And then again, maybe the people you don't like just haven't matured enough to have command over the beat; it's a developmental thing, you know, being a fully developed musician. I think one's time feel and personal aesthetic takes time to develop (an old school player told me "you won't find your own style before you're 40 so don't try-it'll just come when it comes after a lot of playing".) Originally Posted by princeplanet
I think I can sound passable at very basic FG 4 to the bar playing trying to make every chord sound just right (tone, duration, swing feel etc).
I dunno, I just thought "good" players would have enough technique to turn their hand to Swing, Bossa, Funk , whatever, without sounding like rank beginners ...
You're absolutely right, a lot of players DON'T have a solid sense of time. It takes a lot of work and attention. It's extremely mindful practicing. I don't know that playing chunka chunka on an 18" New Yorker strung with 15's is going to serve everyone from a stylistic point. There are many ways to practice time, if that's a concern. Developing that skill with the instrument you work with everyday is a good place to start. The requirements needed to pull off impeccable time are between you and the instrument. Wayne Krantz has unreal time sense. He found out that no amount of speculation can replace the brute force of months chained to a metronome. Lotsa players like Wayne, but they don't put in the hours. So they sound lame.
Time. It's not how you count it, it's how you master it.
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That's reassuring. I think I spent my 20s not having a clue, and my 30s imitating other players. Now I feel I'm actually coming up with something. Seems about right. Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
Also, to add to what you said, just because you can play rhythm guitar well it doesn't mean your time for soloing or more interactive or broken up comping is solid. Improvising and keeping the time together is harder than just playing a steady pattern obviously. It's easy to lose focus on the pulse.
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I 've always found Freddie Green style comping one of the most difficult things to successfully pull off on the bandstand, probably because one, the swing feel is a lot different from the bebop feel that most modern players are used to, and second, because you play all the quarter notes, so you are in the same boat with the drummer and bass player, and that's a challenge!
Besides Freddie Green, i have found Grant Greens comping style to be extremely interesting and fun too. Different style, but he plays very old fashioned, always playing grooves and phrase style comping, which is a rhythm school on its own..
I like both styles, and find them very different from the more open and abstract bebop styles that followed.
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I think it's also the nature of the beast, simple Jazz style comping on the guitar is harder than it might seem to many. I just showed my wife how to comp charleston style for a half dozen common standards on the piano, just drop 2 voicings (I don't play piano). She has no piano experience (Fur Elise from when she was a kid). Anyhow, after 2 weeks she had 3 pieces down, Jazz Blues in F, Autumn Leaves and Just Friends. 2 weeks from scratch! Her time and sound was fine, and possibly more musical sounding than many experienced guitarists (even Jazz guitarists) playing the exact same thing, who often will sound imprecise and a little sloppy here and there.
It has been an interesting exercise, and more than a little disconcerting
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A lot of the time I find myself comping in duos on the 1 and 3 with occasional upbeats and 4's and things. It gives the soloist space I think, 4 can sound a bit hemmed in sometimes, unless it's that sort of a gig.
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True too. In my case, if I have to do interactive, boppish style I not necessarily have problem with rhythm, but have problem with ideas. Also feel like a fraud, like what do I do exactly, because I really just want to do rhythm, not comping. Usually end up playing steady riff figures, more to do with pop or blues or rocknroll. Then again, I can count on my fingers how many times I was called to do a real jazz gig, so all is fair. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I think a certain component of the answer to this question is psychological. When Green started out, the role of the instrument was different and there was not an emphasis on the guitar as a solo instrument in the forefront of a band. In the last 70 years, that has completely changed and now the guitar is expected to comp, solo, playing extended chord melody solos, etc.
There is a certain inherent patience and selflessness necessary to be in the background as part of the musical glue that holds the rhythm together, with your contributions being "felt" more than "heard." It's both almost a lost art and somewhat of a lost cognitive framework. To me, that cognitive framework is as important as people today being less familiar with the style.
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Yeah, that's exactly it. You find a place in the mix behind what is going on, and keep it locked in. It's like you've got the secret ingredient that elevates everyone if you are doing it right.
One frustration is when bandleaders complain that I am too low in the mix, that they can't hear the harmony. I feel like saying 'learn to play the changes then' haha. It's a balance, having enough chord in there to give the harmony, but not so much that it start to get in the way, and you lose that nice attack/delay thing. And with a PA it can be a bit of a nightmare.
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Here's an excerpt from Herb Ellis' instructional video (now DVD). He is trading fours with the home viewer, so he solos for four bars and comps for four bars.
Herb knew Freddie Green. They admired each other. They made an album together. But Herb---who was an excellent rhythm guitarist--didn't comp like Freddie did.
(You also hear Terry Holmes in the background here. He doesn't comp like Freddie either. Ray Brown is playing the bass.)
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For some great info & resources examining Freddie Green's playing style, see Freddie Green Style: Lessons & Technique:
Freddie Green Style: Lessons & Technique
and here is a beautiful recording of him accompanying Kenny Burrell and Frank Wess:
Jim Hall wrote about his great admiration for Freddie Green's playing:
'When I was in my 20s I tried to pattern my life after Freddie Green...
"How can I make my driving like Freddie Green's playing?" Comfortable, no bumps, pleasant.'
(Jim Hall Exploring Jazz Guitar, p.63)
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Our own Jonathan Stout refers to himself as a pre-bebop guitarist. He can swing 'the old fasioned way.' He's also aware of the difference between the swing of Freddie Green and that of, say, Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis (and so on). His blog is a great resource. Originally Posted by Alter
Here he is with a block chord version of "Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea." (Not the same thing but you'll be glad you listened.)
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Who killed jazz ?
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