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It seems like pentatonics is one of the first thing that guitarists learn but I found out about it much much later and still did not use a lot...
I think jazz musicians used it not only for blues and blue notes but because it consists of 'good' intervals and naturally breakes regular mechanic scalewise movement, that is not so much creative maybe but it can make a person incorporate more melodic thinking through pattern...
I am not sure if it is right or wrong but I used to think of pentatoncs more like a triad with passing or approaching notes... like Amin pentanocs is Cmajor triad with passing 2 and added 6... sort of c-d-e-a-g (yes like coming from above... it is like basic variant) or Aminor triad with passing forth and 7th from below (g-a-c-d-e)... and so on..
Maybe it shifts a focus away from its scalar linear quality but it opened more possibilities for me in application and as I was familar with 7th chords and tirads on the fretboard it made my orientation much easier - and - as it seemed to me - more versatile... when you think throu triads you relate through triads... and also I was more flexible that way -- more chance that you alter some note or add extra note... thinking more of where it si going to...Last edited by Jonah; 01-31-2020 at 09:19 AM.
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01-31-2020 03:14 AM
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That seems to work Jonah. Years ago and even now.... Pentatonics become a pattern that has a target note and the pattern is an approach to rhythmically support that target note with a harmonic reference. Like what you implied with triad... but really are just very guitar friendly licks.
Like using arpeggios to approach each note of a melodic line. And the patterns become a diatonic device to play lots of notes that have that same effect as the arpeggios... but different. The shapes are different and can imply different chords or harmony. They become modal in character. Or they can if one chooses to.
Generally once you get the mechanics together and get technique up to speed. They just become a mechanical device to.... again, frame or target a melodic line with and the actual notes of the device, the pentatonic patterns change.
Years ago I use to play faster and longer pen. patterns like I comp.... The lead or top note of each pattern was a simple melodic line and the pentatonic pattern below that line would be chords.
It's not that simple to do... you do need to have chops and be able to interchange pentatonic shapes to imply whatever chords your using. (Like walking and chewing gum.)
So you can have a very diatonic melody on top and have fun with chords being implied with pentatonics below.
That was one of the reasons I used Functional organization...
Hey Will I think Christian was just calling me a Downward Pickslant hoe
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DownWard Pick Slant, but I like your guesses.
Originally Posted by WillMbCdn5
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Thanks pauln. Slow is a very relative term, right.
Will.... Dorian with Pentatonic shapes can be way of using Pentatonic shapes with 7 notes, Dorian. Also works with any scale etc... This BS I used 50 years ago... but is still fun.
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So, then, are you? Originally Posted by Reg
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Good question... I use the technique... or I guess the name uses my technique... So I am within the eyes of some.
I really don't really care either way... If it helps.
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Provided your technique and one you were called up on are the same (I do not know and can not tell) ... Originally Posted by Reg
... From what I read on the forum, you do it your way for decades, while only recently someone coined a catchy buzzword for sales pourposes. Therefore, you can not be "one" (what I asked before).
I wonder, while developing it, working on it, what were your thoughts, road map, mile stones, how did you do it? For example, were you about picking on one string from ..., but going from one string to another from ..., trying to hold the pick at some particular angle .... which all in the end resulted in your technique as is?
Again, not to observe and describe what it is and how you do it, but rather what you were doing to come to it?
As a matter of fact, I think I remember seeing your clip about technique, where I do not think you mention anything alike DWhatever ...
Also, what I do not quite get, why was picking technique even mentioned after you posted graphs of some pentatonic shapes?! As far as I am concerned, technique and note choices are/ should be independent. In my view, there is nothing in a graph of pentatonic shape to imply any picking technique. From your previous posts, I thought your poisition was similar. However, in this thread, you accepted technique remark as something natural. What am I missing?
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Penatonics over "Solar":
Box
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Some cool moments there Kris... nice and good choice of tune.
hey Vladan... when I was kid... part of my daily practice was those spider like drills across all strings. when I was still in my teens... I could shred pentatonics. (I only brought up as a knock on myself).... mindless guitar blazing. But did get me through doors... ( then kicked back out).
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Originally Posted by Vladan
Downward pick slanting facilitates alternate picking fast pentatonic licks (2 notes per string). Reg could be accused of utilizing his downward slanting pick technique to do just that.
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Guilty as charged...do I have to do time, or just a fine.
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Originally Posted by Reg
I think we can write it off as "time served".
I gotta say thank you for your earlier post with the Dorian/Lydian relational pentatonic idea. That just opened a new door for me relating major/minor pentatonics.
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You say licks, but posted were shapes. Any number of notes per string can be played in any shape. Why presume 2 notes per string licks? Why presume any licks, or techniques if question is about scales over chords? Originally Posted by FwLineberry
Only after Christianm77 introduced technique talk, Reg posted those licks/ patterns.
Regarding technique it self, if there is downward, there must be upward, isn't it so? In context, are the 2 any different in result? Why presume one over another, or over any other? Maybe it is really about rest strokes?
I feel like it is suggested to devellop certain type of licks, just because they can be played fast by using certain technique? Isn't that sonewhat "fake" aporoach? I thought we should devellop technique(s), so to be able to play what we want to play. I mean in principle.
In reallity, in the end, we all play only what we can play.
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Okay, the PDF linked in this post. This is what I've been looking for for a while now. I was gonna post, asking about it. Originally Posted by Reg
(For anyone interested, these are the 16th note fills in reg's videos which are actually so fast that they confound the slowdown feature on YouTube, at least they always have at whatever resolution /bandwidth I'm at here.)
Anyway, thanks so much. I was wondering what your fingering protocol is on pentatonics?
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Thanks for leniency... it won't happen again, ooohhh.
So Vladan... what's the difference between using single notes and creating improve as compared to using larger collections of notes and creating improve. Personally single notes are also just a lick, I can hear chords, scales, arps different licks just as well as I can single notes.
Analogy, maybe... Your soloing with no volume, and no one can hear, or with volume and can be heard. So is the problem the volume or that no one can hear you. OK maybe not that great, point the volume is not the solo, just as using licks or note collections are not the solo. That solo with no volume could be from the soul and aligned with stars etc... perfect. But is it fake or not real because no one could hear.
Anyway... personally licks are just like single notes. It still comes down to how one uses them. I like scales, just don't really ever play them, I still like pentatonic licks, they're very guitar stylistic.
The speed or technical thing seems to always be those that have chops like them, those that don't... don't. Personally, that's not the point. I simply believe musicians need a level of technique just to be able to play in a jazz style. That Speed of Jazz thing I always joke with, is real. It was real 50 years ago. This doesn't mean one needs to play fast... but feels and styles need subdivisions and enough technical skills to create.
But... while we're developing those skills... talking about how to use pentatonic scales or licks when performing, we're in that moment. Not really worried about performance.... just how to use the patterns in chord progressions.
The real improv stuff comes latter, when you develop understanding of how to use them. All the options.
Or at least beat them into your head etc... whatever method works.
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Hey... Matt
Cool, yea using a lick or pattern in harmonic context is fun. It's like playing chords with a lead line. Pentatonics have harmonic references... or at least it's very easy to give them harmonic context.
And yea, I'm very simple... no magic or secrets.
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Yeah. Thanks again. I found that I can see/hear what you doing videos much much better , since actually learning the fingerings etc. the biggest hole remaining at this point , honestly is this pentatonic runs. They are seriously so fast as to be indistinguishable with Youtube slowdown feature. Resolution just isn't high enough at that slower speed.
Anyway, it's always vastly easier to hear things you can someone play already , some kind of basic level anyway. I know that's obvious to everyone. Just saying.
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1. Why do you ask me, that question? I was not talking about that issue. Originally Posted by Reg
2. Sorry, I do not understand analogy.
3. Cool, whatever get's the job done. Isn't it?
Personally, if playing scale means playing them straight up/ down, I do not do that too often. Not itentionally, at least, I mean, not thinking "Now I am going to play scale".
On the other hand, the way I think of playing scales, whatever one plays can be seen as pattern made of notes from apropriate scales, where scales are collections of suitably available pitches. No need for naming.
Three basic patterns are
- notes in order
- skipping
- two, or more at once
Over time, certain combinations of patterns can become licks.
4. I do not remember anybody in this thread speaking against speed and playing fast. I surelly was not.
I said, it is good to have technique to play fast, what one wants to play fast.
I said, it is not so good to play something just because it is the only thing one is able to play fast, with technique at disposal. Which also does not mean that I do not do it, when I feel like it.
5. Probably you did not understand my questions and my point of view. Probably my fault, will have to work on my English. Probably, I did not ubderstand your post, one I am replying to.
To try to clarify ...
My question was: if there is a shape, for example pentatonic shape, why presume technique and note order?
The reason behind the question being: any technique can be used, notes can be played in any order. Just because it is 2 notes per string shape, derived licks and patterns do not have to be 2 notes per string. And so on ...
EDIT: added 3rd patternLast edited by Vladan; 02-04-2020 at 05:35 PM.
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Hey Vladan... sorry if I didn't understand Question. Also I tend to expand answers, maybe not a good practice.
So (1) and (2) My analogy was just trying make others aware that we don't all think alike... apples and oranges.
3) and 4) Fast is just relative term... fast to one is slow to another. Or slow to one is fast to another.
5) sorry...
Pentatonics can be played with any notes, any speed, and order etc... But... different shapes and notes have different harmonic implication.
The picking thing... is very relative with technique. Technique generally isn't musical, it's just the skills use to be musical or play... what one chooses to. There are very different picking techniques... some work better when skipping strings or even when just playing faster.
OK we got off track... who cares, we're just talking. If you want to get into pentatonics.... I've already gone through most of the possibilities back in the 60's and into the 70's. The results are still the same. Some are just more popular. Back then you couldn't just pull up examples... you had to do the work.
Generally pentatonic create difficult picking applications. Most guitar players play and use one of the 5 shapes from the Maj and Min version.... some also use the 2nd version I posted above. I like to use pentatonics with 7 notes references... It's just personal choices when we play them.... when someone else plays them, and we're comping, it's generally better to play chords that work with what the soloist is doing or play simple voicings etc...
Or just do the best you can... Please ask me for more details ....
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Reg, I think I agree with all you said in above post.
Regarding my query, why would shape imply picking technique, after all, it was not to you to answer. Christianm77 made the presumption, so he is the one to explain, should he feel like it.
The query was just an afterthought in a post where I asked you something else. To that question, you already answered.
Maybe the answer was not what I hoped for, but nevertheless, I do not have more questions for you, for the time being, at least.
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Thanks for sharing that PDF! Originally Posted by Dana
I'm curious why you presented the major key options in the form of minor pentatonics.
I realize that a C major pentatonic scale has the same notes as an A minor pentatonic scale, but is there some advantage to visualizing it as an A minor pentatonic while improvising?
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...what about Am over F#7alt /dminant chord? Originally Posted by Dana
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There are some nice penta licks on piano ala Mccoy Tyner:
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Yea Kris,
So When I use A min pentatonic like that.... I'm basically thing of F#7alt as either the related VI chord or'''
/C#-7b5 F#7alt / B-7 E7 / A-7 so sometimes with more modern latin grooves...
/ C#7alt F#7alt/ B7alt E7alt./ A-7 / and the A-7 would be a typical A-7 Dorian montuno, or some type of Amin chor pattern vamp.
Anyway the F#7alt is just part of II V of II- and with a tonal target of A-
I use pentatonics over Melodic Minor harmonies with thee pentatonic not including the root.
I think like I've posted before, I use pentatonics with 7 note implications... just like arpeggios, or basic 7th chords.
Haven't used the McCoy licks in a while... still love them though.
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Attachment 69028
Scof minor pentatonics over 251.
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