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I've noticed that when guitar players comp for another guitar player one on one, at least from the limited ones I've seen, that they tend to walk bass or play chord voicings within the bottom 3 or 4 strings (E, A, D, G)?
Perhaps done to stay out of the other guitarist's way?
Is this a common practice, to stay out of the other guitar player's 'range' or ... just a coincidence?
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12-18-2019 11:11 AM
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Depends on who's doing the comping...I've heard plenty of other ways of doing it.
Honestly, if I was playing with another guitar player, the low chords would be fine...but I really think walking bass is a "use sparingly" effect on guitar. An electric guitar does NOT have the same tone as a bass in my opinion, and it could get cluttered fast.
As for the low chords, maybe not too much with the E and A strings together, but with a brighter tone I hear some modern guys doing that and it sounds great.
In a "straight ahead" environment, I think of Jimmy and Doug Raney as the gold standard.
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
The Jimmy and Doug Raney stuff that Mr Beaumont mentioned is on a level that I'll certainly never achieve in this lifetime. Amazing playing.
I'm a rank beginner and mediocre guitarist, but I do get together with another guitarist once a week. I need him play the "1" in every measure and stay away from any fancy stuff on the high strings or I get thrown off. When I comp for him I stay primarily on the bottom 4 strings with occasional voicings that include the B-string. I'm trying to comp for him the way I want him to comp for me.
At this stage of the game I'll probably never play with a band or even a bass player. 2 guitars is where my interest is so I try to watch as many as I can find. From my observations straight up 4-to-the-bar on the lower strings seems to be the most common way of comping for another guitarist. I saw Jack Wilkins play with a local semi-pro player and when he comped it was simple 4-to-the-bar on the lower strings with an occasional walking bass line. Watch Frank Vignola with Jimmy Bruno, Vinny Raniolo, Bucky Pizzarelli, etc.
In fact, I'd call it "rhythm" playing rather than "comping". That's not my idea. I saw Rich Severson interviewing John Pisano and Pisano drew a clear disticntion between comping and playing rhythm.
I'm getting off on a tangent here. I agree with your observations and would say that it's fairly common practice.
I'm really interested in this and would love to here what the experienced people have to say about this.
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As a regular club-jam participant I often find myself and a pianist comping for another guitarist. Job number one: Communicate with pianist; avoid doubling- and tripling-up. Job number two: Support soloist actively and musically from both the harmonic and rhythmic standpoints.
My "experience" -- which, on this forum, is almost laughable -- is that leaving rhythmic space is even more important than avoiding any particular register. Wait until you're musically needed before chording. If a horn-style riff or countermelody in octaves works, that's fewer notes to collide with the soloist.
Seek the space between hanging somebody out to dry and stepping on the soloist, however briefly.
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
John
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A guitar duo that seems to do this pretty well is Andy Brown and Howard Alden. There are a number of YouTube videos of them playing both in a group and just as a guitar duo. Both do what I consider to be a great job.
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One of the instances I mentioned, but there are many others...
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
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That's really nice ...
Frank sound like he's playing with brushes ...wonderful ...
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
Play the song
This means providing the rhythm and harmony for the soloist, using chords
Make the song sound best
This means making judgement with respect to the song as to what makes the song sound best, so choosing the appropriate rhythm styles and chord forms, and doing this with regard to the soloist, so choosing styles and forms that do not cover, cloud, or clash but support and help feature the soloist (staying out of the soloists' way, both rhythmically and harmonically)
Make the soloist sound best
This means playing to the soloist's strengths and weaknesses (or often the same thing, their preferences), so for an advanced soloist who explores more rhythmic or harmonic freedom the appropriate styles and forms might be relatively simple, but for a simple soloist they often sound best if the accompaniment is more complex... it really depends and you have to use your musical judgement, as in all things Jazz
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some double barreled comping is always nice...
cheers
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Originally Posted by jobabrinks
Hes not comping. That's rhythm guitar. And outstanding rhythm guitar, I must say.
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For me one important thing is paying attention to your range, which usually means playing lower notes and voicings, as the soloist will probably be playing higher. Also to practice minimalism, to try to support the music playing as little as possible. Try to break up and imply the rhythm rather than constantly playing it. With a good partner, try to focus on interplay, as it can really make a difference in how interesting a duet sounds.
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I find listening to two jazz guitarists to be mostly unappealing, and in reality, often view it as a forced economic compromise, rather than an artistic choice. Not always true, but often enough to be another pity facing lack of jazz opportunities.
Is comping for another guitarist really that different than comping for a trumpet or sax??
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Birrelli is amazing at that too ....
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Danny W.
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Yea... just like all the other skills, there really is much more to it.
The tune, the arrangement and how the performance is organized...
There are some standard common practice approaches, that are basically part of what arrangements and Styles imply.
And yea... there are standard technical skills, which you should be aware of and together before you can probable even try and use them. I mean if you aren't aware of the standard Line cliche's, montunos, chord patterns and all the other harmonic BS. It's pretty difficult to use your ears and then actually interact and improv with a soloist.
Most just use what chords and licks they have memorized and try to create a counter part or what ever style you or the music implies.
I would suggest becoming aware of the standard styles and the standard rhythmic and sectional parts that reflect that style. The standard harmonic chord patterns and melodic lead lines, (the melody or licks of the style), which imply the harmony and feels of those styles.
A lot of players have been using the Drumgenius phone app for examples of styles and variations with different feels and tempo. Which seems great, most don't want to really go in the theory, harmony etc... approach. I use the app to give drummers or rhythm section examples of feels for head arrangement at gigs... when musical terms or notational examples aren't going to work.
Anyway, there can be a lot to actually comping. The most important and starting point.... have your TIME together. You can suck at almost any other aspect, but you just can't screw up TIME. It's pretty lousy when soloing... and also need to keep time and imply the basic harmony etc... ( I know, that should be a given).
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
I would venture to guess that many who read this forum are never going to play in a band. However, there's a high probability that they might find another guitarist who plays at their level and wants to have some fun playing and learning together.
Everybody doesn't play at your level, Gumbo. Everybody is not in your situation. Everybody doesn't share your tastes. Lots of us have questions that you might think are stupid and mundane but are important to us.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
BUT that wasn't the point of this thread; many amateurs guitar players, like myself, have friends that also play guitar. Therefore we are stuck with playing with each other. It was only in the last 8 years that I became friends with a piano player and now I jam with him once a week or so. Of course I WISH I could find other amateur non-guitarist jazz musicians to jam with,,,, but I have found that to be difficult.
I do agree that comping for a trumpet or sax isn't "that different" than it is for another guitarist. For the guitar player, the difference occurs when they solo since that has to be done without accompaniment.
As I'm sure you know comping for a piano player is much different, but the good thing is that the piano player doesn't "need" anyone else.
Thus spare playing is preferred. (and even when I just sit-out the piano player overplays his hand - pun intended).Last edited by jameslovestal; 12-19-2019 at 05:46 PM.
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the great john pisano was on many classic joe pass recordings...he was joes right hand man...joe wanted no other...they later even did a duets recording
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 12-19-2019 at 06:06 PM. Reason: cl-
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Originally Posted by Jack E Blue
Here's some good two guitar stuff.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
"the action of playing a musical accompaniment, especially in jazz or blues".
Of course I'm not saying this is THE definition, but based on this, playing rhythm guitar, with another musician would be a "musical accompaniment". (so maybe you were making a wise crack?).
If not, this makes me curious how you define "comping". E.g. when there are only two guitars can one ever 'comp' for the other (or is that just playing rhythm guitar).
Sorry for so many questions that at the end of the day are rather meaningless. BUT I did get something out of the video of Frank and Jimmy: their technique of backing the other was 180 degrees different.
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
Danny W.
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
A good example of the ‘comping’ would be any of the Jimmy and Doug Raney duet tracks you can find on YouTube.
For 2 guitars either approach can be used depending on preferences, the kind of tune, skill level etc.
Heritage Johnny Smith incoming
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