Charlie Parker fully analyzed

[pcjazz]

I'm going to call you out right now and say you are flat out lying if you continue with this without qualifying that as (for example) university functional harmony pedagogy or abersold cst pedagogy. We're aware the PEDAGOGY wasn't developed until later. They still had the functional knowledge of harmony and association of chords and scales like Marinero explains. You can't look at the music and say they didn't.

Nobody in this increasingly futile discussion has suggested otherwise. And you could stand to lose the attitude.

[Jimmy Smith]

I'll stop being forceful when you guys stop pushing lies.

[Jimmy Smith]

Hey Jimmy... skip the BH stuff and stay with David...Hazeltine..... much more usable approach to actually playing.

Not mutually exclusive. Yeah no, the David Hazeltine rules and I'm all over it. I've already integrated the BH tho. 6/dim is very helpful. Stick a dim in between chord inversions when you want to. Not that big a deal and I've already integrated it after a couple months. His other teachings like extra half step rules and family are pretty invaluable.

[sgcim]

Sturgeon's law - Wikipedia

Kilgore Trout.

[Christian Miller]

I'll stop being forceful when you guys stop pushing lies.

Forceful is not the word I’d use lol

[Jimmy Smith]

[djg]

Kilgore Trout.

[Christian Miller]

Not sure what's so hard for you to understand. We aren't clairvoyant. We only have the ability to understand what you write. And you continually cling to the falsehood that the musicians in the period in question didn't use theory to make their music because the pedagogy was developed later:

Ok that’s literally the misattribution I identified in my post so you clearly don’t have the ability to read what I wrote.

I said Parker didn’t use cst therefore you say I said he didn’t use theory.

no that’s not saying the same thing. Not all music theory is CST.

I'm going to call you out right now and say you are flat out lying if you continue with this without qualifying that as (for example) university functional harmony pedagogy or abersold cst pedagogy. We're aware the PEDAGOGY wasn't developed until later. They still had the functional knowledge of harmony and association of chords and scales like Marinero explains. You can't look at the music and say they didn't.

Anyway, so you’ve lost me here.

So we know bird learned to play his instrument using among other books, the klose book. The contents of the klose book are a Google search away. Have you checked out what it is yet?

So okay, from books like the Klose, he learned scales and arpeggios… because of course he did. Everyone learns that stuff on their instrument. He learns the etudes and so on. He learns the horn.

So how did he learn to improvise jazz?

Are you saying Parker learned classical functional harmony from… I dunno…. Someone? And that’s how he learned to play jazz?

or what?

I mean, classical musicians are not that well known for their ability to improvise or swing.

So here’s the key thing - are you identifying that knowledge concerning classical harmony as being the key aspect which taught him to improvise jazz?

[pcjazz]

Time to stop feeding the troll.

[Christian Miller]

Time to stop feeding the troll.

yeah you’re not wrong.

The thing is I don’t think he’s actually self aware enough to be a troll, that’s the sad thing.

[Jimmy Smith]

How am I the troll? Trolls operate by passing off lies as the truth to aggravate people. That's you. You accuse me of being rude and then proceed right to ad hominems. Seems to be congruent with your integrity level.

I will stop putting words in your mouth. How about you stop trying to revise history in favor of your narrative. I'm saying Parker obviously had knowledge of and used the tenets of cst - which you keep repeating wasn't invented or standardized or however you put it until after the golden age. Therefore he probably learned it from somewhere in addition to the music. He says as much by saying his playing was due to his schooling. He did say that. That encompasses more than what you can write off as classical technique books. His playing also proves it. Look at the omnibook. It is functional cst knowledge applied correctly in every single solo.

[Bop Head]

Ok that’s literally the misattribution I identified in my post so you clearly don’t have the ability to read what I wrote.

I said Parker didn’t use cst therefore you say I said he didn’t use theory.

no that’s not saying the same thing. Not all music theory is CST.



Anyway, so you’ve lost me here.

So we know bird learned to play his instrument using among other books, the klose book. The contents of the klose book are a Google search away. Have you checked out what it is yet?

So okay, from books like the Klose, he learned scales and arpeggios… because of course he did. Everyone learns that stuff on their instrument. He learns the etudes and so on. He learns the horn.

So how did he learn to improvise jazz?

Are you saying Parker learned classical functional harmony from… I dunno…. Someone? And that’s how he learned to play jazz?

or what?

I mean, classical musicians are not that well known for their ability to improvise or swing.

So here’s the key thing - are you identifying that knowledge concerning classical harmony as being the key aspect which taught him to improvise jazz?

Just a pedantic side note that does not take anything away from your core message: There are three possible etudes books by Hyacinthe Klosé — one for clarinet and two for saxophone. They are not getting precise in this regard in the interview.

[Bop Head]

[…] How about you stop trying to revise history in favor of your narrative. […]

Being a German sensitive to the history of his home country: Now you start to remind me of a holocaust denier. Sorry about having to say that.

[Christian Miller]

Just a pedantic side note that does not take anything away from your core message: There are three possible etudes books by Hyacinthe Klosé — one for clarinet and two for saxophone. They are not getting precise in this regard in the interview.

No it’s the Dead Sea scrolls of jazz edu, don’t you know? the secrets of ‘functional CST’ or something.

[Jimmy Smith]

Being a German sensitive to the history of his home country: Now you start to remind me of a holocaust denier. Sorry about having to say that.

How is that when I'm interpreting history correctly and you seek only to corrupt it?

[Christian Miller]

How am I the troll? Trolls operate by passing off lies as the truth to aggravate people. That's you. You accuse me of being rude and then proceed right to ad hominems. Seems to be congruent with your integrity level.

I will stop putting words in your mouth. How about you stop trying to revise history in favor of your narrative. I'm saying Parker obviously had knowledge of and used the tenets of cst - which you keep repeating wasn't invented or standardized or however you put it until after the golden age. Therefore he probably learned it from somewhere in addition to the music. He says as much by saying his playing was due to his schooling. He did say that. That encompasses more than what you can write of as classical technique books. His playing also proves it. Look at the omnibook. It is functional cst knowledge applied correctly in every single solo.

I don’t use the self evident fact that you are rude and ignorant as an argument against you, merely ask you to refrain. This is not the definition of ad hominem, look it up.

if you behave like a troll, people are going to call you one. Don’t behave like one and people will stop calling you one.

I have taken your arguments at face value and given them more time and respect than you have mine, and more than they deserve.

Now, I think it is time for you to buzz off. Goodbye.

You have the honour of being the first JGO member I have ever added to my ignore list, so the bar is quite high.

[Jimmy Smith]

It's not your forum, Christian. You've lost my respect.

[Christian Miller]

It's not your forum, Christian. You've lost my respect.

oh no how will I live?

[Jimmy Smith]

I imagine you'll do ok. Self serving sociopath types are usually like that.

[James W]

From my perspective, Christian has spent an inordinate amount of time and demonstrated a lot of patience with Jimmy Smith (and others) way past the point that I personally would have given up. I've seen this over the past few months, and I just have to say that there are obviously better and more fruitful ways to spend one's time than banging one's head against a brick wall with someone who refuses to budge from a position of ignorance.

[Marinero]

With respect, this is not what's being argued by Christian M and others. The point is that Bach and Charlie Parker didn't think about their music with the theoretical apparatus that we have now - they took what theoretical knowledge that was available at the time and went somewhere else, using their ears to guide them, leaving others to explain what they did after they'd done it.

I'm only responding, J, since your above remarks are so patently absurd. Do you really think that formal Music Theory didn't exist in the 20th Century? And, tell me how music theory/pedagogy has changed in the last several hundred years. Do you think Jazz appeared from divine intervention or a shamanic chant? And, how do you know what those Jazzers thought??? Clairvoyant??? Do you think they played scales, chords, and inversions out of reverberations from a low-hanging cloud??? Or, perhaps, they actually knew and studied theory outside of an academic setting as is so easily heard in their recordings. Many of those musicians as youngsters studied with the pros rather than ambled-brained academics and learned the tools of the trade. How do you think they could have played in Big Bands? How could they have written music? Barry Harris said that "Jazz is Dead" and what he meant was that what he found when he wandered through the colleges and universities in which he gave his master-classes most likely horrified him with the antiseptic, cold, and formulaic approach to this creative music. I agree. Jazz music is not a math equation but it is based on music fundamentals, experience, and a good dose of creativity. With very few exceptions, Barry was right.
Marinero

[Marinero]

Being a German sensitive to the history of his home country: Now you start to remind me of a holocaust denier. Sorry about having to say that.

That's a pathetic low blow, B that deserves an apology. Holocaust denier . . . give me a break!
Marinero

[Marinero]

Time to stop feeding the troll.

Another dumb remark intended to disengage a serious conversation. Is everyone who opposes another's thought a troll? When did you become the arbiter of a heated discussion? Why not tell us what you think instead?
Marinero

[Jimmy Smith]

From my perspective, Christian has spent an inordinate amount of time and demonstrated a lot of patience with Jimmy Smith (and others) way past the point that I personally would have given up. I've seen this over the past few months, and I just have to say that there are obviously better and more fruitful ways to spend one's time than banging one's head against a brick wall with someone who refuses to budge from a position of ignorance.

What position of ignorance? I went and got the interview with Parker himself saying his playing was due to his academic studies. I posted the scan of the omnibook with 100% functional cst. I specifically asked my top pro music teacher if his peers use theory, he said they all do. Why would Christian who is trying to spin things by definition be the one in position of authority? He's a regular member like everyone else. Look at my eagerness to deescalate and make amends with anyone, Reg for example. We disagree but we're on cordial terms and aren't going full retard at each other like Christian instigates.

[Bop Head]

That's a pathetic low blow, B that deserves an apology. Holocaust denier . . . give me a break!
Marinero

I did not say he is one, I said he started to remind me of one. Have you ever had discussions with right-winged radicals? I have tried. Several times. Stubborn willfull ignorance and no way to convince them of anything. I unfortunately am a person as well who takes other’s statements seriously and spends too much time in discussions that turn out to be useless.

I grew up knowing several people very well who were lucky enough to survive the Shoa in England or the USA (RIP all of you). I owe them very much. I do not make jokes on that matter.