Looking for Rhythmic Sign Posts Besides the Obvious

[KirkP]

No one ever talks about playing along with records.

I’ve done that since I was a teenager. It might be playing one tune or one portion of a recording over & over, but I also like to turn on the radio or set my digital collection on random. The latter seems like a great exercise to prepare for the bandstand, trying to lock in and play something interesting when I have no idea what’s coming up next. It doesn’t always go well, and sometimes I’ll skip tunes that are over my head or repeat tunes that I didn’t quite get the first time.

[Irez87]

I love trying to play along to concerts on youtube

For a while, I tried practicing comping that way--on tunes I didn't know.

I got a little better, but my "improvised triadic comping in a story telling vein" is still a long work in progress.

Nothing gets you going like listening to Larry Goldings live or McCoy Tyner.

I stole some basic voicings from Barry Harris and played them at his piano class back when I lived in NYC. He didn't pay attention to me at all, but it was still a rush.

[rpjazzguitar]

No one ever talks about playing along with records.

I'm willing to talk about it. I've had this advice from several Brazilian masters in response to the question, "how can I sound less gringo?"

I do practice that way, although more of the time I use backing tracks so I can practice lots of tunes with key changes at the speed I need. Practicing with records would probably be better. My experience with backing tracks has been quite positive.

I don't know if practicing in unusual ways with the metronome generalizes to performance or not. I think it would probably be better to play along with recordings where the musicians go away from the time (except internally) and come back perfectly.

[christianm77]

I practice more with a metronome than tracks. I sometimes wonder if this is a mistake.

There's a lot you pick up when playing along with tracks... perhaps intuitively, little cues, call and response things, and so on. Also human feel, time in subtle flux, the undulations and so on. Not the pedantic, dead time of a machine.

When it comes to doing fancy shit with the metronome I always recall Brecker saying - “I have at times used a metronome on 2 and 4. I get depressed when I do it because I rush. It [playing with a metronome on 2 and 4] does help.” – Michael Brecker

That feeling of being depressed, I'm not sure if its helpful. I'm sure most of use would love to rush like Brecker, if that's what rushing is haha. Perhaps Brecker is right, maybe it did help... But perhaps also playing with the best musicians in the world may have had some impact as well.

I know when I do stupid nerdy metronome stuff like in Jen's video, I nail when I'm relaxed and in touch with my instrument, not preoccupied with the mechanics of playing it. If the metronome has taught me anything it's that provided you understand how what you are playing is meant to lie with respect to the beat (a lot of people don't understand this with respect to swing, but that's another thing) then whether you play it in time or not is largely down to your state of mind.

Timing is cruel because you might think you are improving, doing valuable work, but in fact you might just be focussing on the wrong thing, getting more tense, more on top, and not focussing on the deeper issues that are affecting your time. Meditation or yoga might be a better way to work on it, for instance, than shedding an hour with a click on 10 bpm, say. But if you are in the right space, an hour with a click on 10bpm is itself a form of meditation.

The metronome can only tell you you got it wrong. It can't teach you this stuff...

Wish I'd known that 15 years ago!

EDIT: the other thing is that players that work a lot professionally with a click tend to sit back on the click, because that's the feeling you want to have so that you are right on the beat and not ahead. This is completely different to other situations when you want to define the time more, and negotiate with other players. In fact players that work a lot with a click can tend to drag, so Jens's ideas for using the metronome more imaginatively make you take more responsibility for your time.

[KirkP]

Victor Wooten has a few videos with advanced metronome exercises. For the first five minutes of this one he keeps it on the downbeat, but then he progresses to some non-obvious click placements, such as on pickup notes (e.g., 1/16th ahead of the one).

I think I tend to stress pickup beats in my comping and soloing—not necessarily consciously, but because it feels good. I once had a jam partner complain that my coming in ahead of the beat was making them rush. It might make me tend to rush too! I like the feel though. Advanced metronome exercises might help me keep that ahead of the beat feel in the groove.

[Irez87]

I think I tend to stress pickup beats in my comping and soloing—not necessarily consciously, but because it feels good. I once had a jam partner complain that my coming in ahead of the beat was making them rush. It might make me tend to rush too! I like the feel though.

I dunno about before, but you don't rush when you comp. I've played with people who knew how to comp and those that didn't--in LA and NYC. For instance, Hep knows how to comp--his time feel is rock solid. You've got a solid time feel as well, Kirk. I can access more ideas when I solo because you are rock solid when you comp.

A lot of guitarists focus too much on voicings when they comp--ME INCLUDED! Though, I have to say, since I started this "pick only" challenge--I am focusing on rhythm a lot more. I can see what Peter Bernstein meant about comping with a pick--though there are some great guys that comp with fingers...ahem... ED BICKERT (he does both, if I'm not mistaken)

I think I rush when I comp. I like pushing the time when I solo, because it's my time to play how I feel my time. That said, I don't want to push someone else's time--that defeats the role of an accompanist IMO.

[Irez87]

I don't think we need an excuse to post more drum videos on a jazz guitar site, so here it goes:

I'd be remiss not to post some more 80/20, especially because I almost took lessons with Nate back in NYC (I think I'm more ready to study with him now than where I was back in NYC)

I still say that Peter Bernstein treats his strum/attack with his right hand--when comping--in the same way that master drummers treat their stick hits. There's a bounce, a physical bounce that Pete B does that few other guitarists do... it's not a Gypsy Jazz thing, it's different. I want that!

These drummers here in the videos above are also master teachers. This isn't exactly what I was talking about in the OP, but it's worth a listen.

[Irez87]

All of this rhythm talk has got me thinking...

I'm gonna challenge myself to use drummers as inspiration for my comping.

Rhythms, yes... but much more. The way that that you strike the snare has a different sound depending on how you hit it. The bass drum has a certain sound.

I tried imitating the bass drum and snare on my guitar while comping through some chromatic harmony... and I LIKE IT.

I think that Peter Berstein (he's one of my modern favorites) thinks similarly about accompaniment--there is much to learn from the jazz drummer.

Plus, this concept works great with my fascination with partial harmony, triads, dyads, and such.

The bass drum sounds like a major 6th played off the low E and D strings...

The snare hits sound great as triads built off the b and high E string. I'm practicing getting the sound of the bounce off the snare off the guitar. As Quincy said in the aforementioned drum video--it's all about the accents.

Drums can sustain notes as well, but the concept is a little different.

I'm not the first guitarist to explore the drums as an inspiration--look at Tal Farlow or all of these new finger style acoustic players. That said, this could be another interesting challenge for my playing.

This could bring me closing to the rhythmic phrasing I'm talking about in the OP.

[KirkP]

I think Mimi Fox started out on drums, and said that it really helped her playing.

Milo Peterson performs in the Seattle area both as a drummer and guitarist. Here he’s on drums:

...and here on guitar:

I wonder how many other jazz guitarists also play drums or percussion.

[christianm77]

Just back from playing a gig to 50 or so dancers, no drums.

Guitar is percussion. We just forgot because we got distracted by the piano.

This is actually the first time I've done it. Bass, guitar and sax. It's the first time I've done one of these without drums, and I'm glad it went well and dancers seemed to be happy, responding to the music and so on. It requires, basic, clear playing.

Chord solos in the guitar. Actually the bass player - who is also an early jazz guitar specialist, actually much more so than me, pointed out that my chord soloing doesn't use much syncopation - he said like I only syncopate every 4th chord in 3, which sounds about right. He said he thought this was good for the dancers. Sometimes I play 8th note chord things ala Alan Reuss, but it just feels that I have to do that for the dancers, and build solos and dynamics in such a way that it makes sense.

It's taking that rhythmic force you need in the very basic, clear dance music and putting it into the more complex instrumental listening jazz... That's the secret, no?

[KirkP]

I sometimes think of a guitar as a drum with stings—especially, when played in a percussive style. I too have performed in trio with bass and sax or clarinet, often in noisy venues, but never a room full of dancers. In that situation “less is more” definitely applies. If you’re tempted to add any hip accents, you can’t lose the pocket. Even more so when playing duet with sax or clarinet.

[pauln]

There may be a fundamental problem with the idea of seeking "sign posts"...

Imagine placing a metronome 11 feet away and picking a single note to synchronize the click and the note.

The click takes 10ms (0.01 seconds) to reach your ear.
It takes 150ms of processing to result in perceiving the click.
It takes another 150ms of processing to respond and play the note.

All that is just in one direction (from metronome to you) and totals 310ms - almost a third of a second.

Now replace the metronome with a drummer listening to you.

The drummer's tap on the hi-hat takes 10ms (0.01 seconds) to reach your ear.
It takes 150ms of processing for you to result in perceiving the tap.
It takes another 150ms of processing for you to respond and play the note.
It takes another 10ms for your played note to reach the drummer.
It takes 150ms of processing for for the drummer to result in perceiving your note.
It takes another 150ms of processing for the drummer to respond to play his taps.

What you and the drummer hear cannot be synchronous; however, we know that musicians do play synchronous.

We do so not by attempting to lock into individual things we hear, but by locking into the rate or pace of the whole stream... everyone involved is actually locking into the same rate, but none of whom are actually placed together in phase lock within that rate. Everyone is slightly adjusted so the result is coherent.

This is what's behind the recommendation to relax the frequency of "time check" events, letting them be further apart; you are only checking that your take on the shared rate is correct and holding, and doing this across longer spans of time naturally shifts attention away from beat artifacts to the feel of rate and pace.

Your local "instantaneous" sense of time is something else... consider that despite your perception being delayed, thing are changing in the music fast enough that some of what is being "decided" and physically played by you is actually initiated and executed prior to your perception of it (including some aspects of ideas, choices, and judgement)... even at moderate levels of notes per second.

[Irez87]

This is what's behind the recommendation to relax the frequency of "time check" events, letting them be further apart; you are only checking that your take on the shared rate is correct and holding, and doing this across longer spans of time naturally shifts attention away from beat artifacts to the feel of rate and pace.

Your local "instantaneous" sense of time is something else... consider that despite your perception being delayed, thing are changing in the music fast enough that some of what is being "decided" and physically played by you is actually initiated and executed prior to your perception of it (including some aspects of ideas, choices, and judgement)... even at moderate levels of notes per second

The math was interesting, did you calculate that in a DAW?

All good points.

But my initial OP wasn't about syncing up to a ride pattern or a hihat. Rhythmic sign posts, at least the way I see them, have more to do with marking the phrase and marking the form. Rhythmic sign posts also influence the way that we accent certain notes or lines (such as a rim click placed on the 4th quarter of every other measure)

[John A.]

"So, okay now, getting back to Stan Getz, undulation’s just one word. The others are clarity, projection, and placement. Some of that I got from him, some from other people"

Hmm, that sounds eerily similar to what I've been saying. It's not the notes, it's where you PLACE the notes. What BH says here is exactly what I MEANT to say--it's about clarity, projection, and placement.

What video and comment are you referring to (link please)? I mean if Christian thinks he's confused about this conversation, consider the rest of us ...

To your OP, I guess for time, as in literally tempo, the speed we're playing at, I try to focus on the bass. I listen to the drummer more for cues about the form, and dynamics, but also try to sync some of my comping with the bombs. The caveat to all of the above is that I like space, and if there's a piano, I mostly lay out because it gets mighty crowded. Soloing, I focus a lot on the drums, and will often build to a climax with some sort of repeated phrase/lick/hit that the drummer can echo.

John
PS, what is Reg's actual name? I've been trying to figure that out from breadcrumbs here, without succeeding.

[christianm77]

There may be a fundamental problem with the idea of seeking "sign posts"...

Imagine placing a metronome 11 feet away and picking a single note to synchronize the click and the note.

The click takes 10ms (0.01 seconds) to reach your ear.
It takes 150ms of processing to result in perceiving the click.
It takes another 150ms of processing to respond and play the note.

All that is just in one direction (from metronome to you) and totals 310ms - almost a third of a second.

Now replace the metronome with a drummer listening to you.

The drummer's tap on the hi-hat takes 10ms (0.01 seconds) to reach your ear.
It takes 150ms of processing for you to result in perceiving the tap.
It takes another 150ms of processing for you to respond and play the note.
It takes another 10ms for your played note to reach the drummer.
It takes 150ms of processing for for the drummer to result in perceiving your note.
It takes another 150ms of processing for the drummer to respond to play his taps.

What you and the drummer hear cannot be synchronous; however, we know that musicians do play synchronous.

We do so not by attempting to lock into individual things we hear, but by locking into the rate or pace of the whole stream... everyone involved is actually locking into the same rate, but none of whom are actually placed together in phase lock within that rate. Everyone is slightly adjusted so the result is coherent.

This is what's behind the recommendation to relax the frequency of "time check" events, letting them be further apart; you are only checking that your take on the shared rate is correct and holding, and doing this across longer spans of time naturally shifts attention away from beat artifacts to the feel of rate and pace.

Your local "instantaneous" sense of time is something else... consider that despite your perception being delayed, thing are changing in the music fast enough that some of what is being "decided" and physically played by you is actually initiated and executed prior to your perception of it (including some aspects of ideas, choices, and judgement)... even at moderate levels of notes per second.

You fail to acknowledge the power of the Force. I find your lack of faith disturbing.

In seriousness I don’t think experienced musicians react so much as anticipate. There’s shared rhythmic language on one hand, experience on the other, be it of a particularly musician or the idiom in general.

(We’ve also talked about ‘using the Force’ in bands, I’m sure others have had similar interactions.)

Rhythms in jazz are not random, but organised according to latent but pervasive principles that can be intuited from contact with the music.

[christianm77]

What video and comment are you referring to (link please)? I mean if Christian thinks he's confused about this conversation, consider the rest of us ...

To your OP, I guess for time, as in literally tempo, the speed we're playing at, I try to focus on the bass. I listen to the drummer more for cues about the form, and dynamics, but also try to sync some of my comping with the bombs. The caveat to all of the above is that I like space, and if there's a piano, I mostly lay out because it gets mighty crowded. Soloing, I focus a lot on the drums, and will often build to a climax with some sort of repeated phrase/lick/hit that the drummer can echo.

John
PS, what is Reg's actual name? I've been trying to figure that out from breadcrumbs here, without succeeding.

Reginald Arthur Effington-Smythe MBE, of course

[pauln]

You fail to acknowledge the power of the Force. I find your lack of faith disturbing.

In seriousness I don’t think experienced musicians react so much as anticipate. There’s shared rhythmic language on one hand, experience on the other, be it of a particularly musician or the idiom in general.

(We’ve also talked about ‘using the Force’ in bands, I’m sure others have had similar interactions.)

Rhythms in jazz are not random, but organised according to latent but pervasive principles that can be intuited from contact with the music.

Yes; when musicians share anticipatory intuition informed by experience the result can certainly sound and feel like magic.

[John A.]

Reginald Arthur Effington-Smythe MBE, of course

Fool me once ...

John

[KirkP]

What you and the drummer hear cannot be synchronous; however, we know that musicians do play synchronous.

We do so not by attempting to lock into individual things we hear, but by locking into the rate or pace of the whole stream... everyone involved is actually locking into the same rate, but none of whom are actually placed together in phase lock within that rate. Everyone is slightly adjusted so the result is coherent.

You’ve made good points. You could make the same points about athletics as well. For any action involving timing you are responding not to what his happened at that exact moment, but at some previous time. You also must initiate an action at a non-negligible time before you want it to occur. To accomplish this, your neural networks need to continuously predict the future and initiate action at the right time such that the bat ends up contacting the ball at the exact time and place to achieve the desired result.

Another timing issue to consider is the delay between when you strike a note (or chord) and when the note develops full volume. If you time your strokes to synchronize with what you hear from the drummer or bassist, the guitar will always seem a little late. You’ve got to listen to how the sound develops and decays from your own instrument and adjust the timing of your strokes such that the volume from the instrument peaks in the right place. Of course, most of that involves unconscious processes, but it’s good to be aware of it and listen for it.

[grahambop]

Reginald Arthur Effington-Smythe MBE, of course

Did you mean Reginald Dixon MBE?

[Irez87]

What video and comment are you referring to (link please)? I mean if Christian thinks he's confused about this conversation, consider the rest of us ...

To your OP, I guess for time, as in literally tempo, the speed we're playing at, I try to focus on the bass. I listen to the drummer more for cues about the form, and dynamics, but also try to sync some of my comping with the bombs. The caveat to all of the above is that I like space, and if there's a piano, I mostly lay out because it gets mighty crowded. Soloing, I focus a lot on the drums, and will often build to a climax with some sort of repeated phrase/lick/hit that the drummer can echo.

John
PS, what is Reg's actual name? I've been trying to figure that out from breadcrumbs here, without succeeding.

John A., you mean you didn't see the interview with Billy Hart that Chris'77 posted? It's the bestest interview I'd ever red.

Seriously, it's a great interview. A lot of my questions about rhythm and time are addressed in said interview.

I've already brought that interview up with three house drummers at the jams I frequent. The older cats know exactly what interview I'm talking about.

Here it is again, sorry for stealing ya thunder, Chris'77:

Interview with Billy Hart | DO THE M@TH

[Irez87]

Oh, and Chris'77, and others...

I posted a solo I took on Stablemates last week... It's on the Performance Ear Training Thread (the last post)

It's far from great, but I would appreciate feedback.

My mentor said, "we gotta take that one back to the drawing board"

Before I share his thoughts, I'd like to hear what you have to say

What worked and what didn't? (I know that A LOT didn't--but I am curious to hear if your notes on my playing match my own )

[John A.]

John A., you mean you didn't see the interview with Billy Hart that Chris'77 posted? It's the bestest interview I'd ever red.

Seriously, it's a great interview. A lot of my questions about rhythm and time are addressed in said interview.

I've already brought that interview up with three house drummers at the jams I frequent. The older cats know exactly what interview I'm talking about.

Here it is again, sorry for stealing ya thunder, Chris'77:

Interview with Billy Hart | DO THE M@TH

I saw the interview, but did not see your comment on Christian's video (or the video you commented on)

John

[Irez87]

John A., I'll give ya a pass cause ya from Nuu Yaaakh

I miss the pizza, and the baaahgils...

My home... but the PNW is quite spectacular, I gotta say!

However, people out west don't understand the common courtesies that us New Yorkers were raise on...

such as, when you get cut off on the Major Degan, you scream "F@%K You, D@UCHE BAG!" and fly the badass finger...

I miss that too

[John A.]

John A., I'll give ya a pass cause ya from Nuu Yaaakh

I miss the pizza, and the baaahgils...

My home... but the PNW is quite spectacular, I gotta say!

However, people out west don't understand the common courtesies that us New Yorkers were raise on...

such as, when you get cut off on the Major Degan, you scream "F@%K You, D@UCHE BAG!" and fly the badass finger...

I miss that too

Real NY'ers don't get cut off on the Deegan.

John