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I was practicing some long major 2-5-1s in the key of C. I came across a 4 note EMaj7+5 arpeggio played over the G7 in the measure just before the resolution to C. I asked myself, "How did that get there?" and I stared off into space for several minutes in bafflement as to what scale this was derived from. I noted some incidental drooling from the corner of my mouth when I finally snapped out of this trance-like state, but I digress. The best scale I could come up with was an Ab bebop major scale. What is your interpretation?
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08-10-2017 08:08 PM
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Good question..
I generally think of chords/chord subs first.
EMaj7+5 arpeggio? Would that be a whole tone scale starting on the 6th of G7? Sounds odd to me.
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I see Ma7+5 I think 3th mode of Melodic Minor, nice modern major sound.
Last edited by docbop; 08-10-2017 at 09:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by docbop
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EMaj7+5 arpeggio;
E, Ab, Bb, Eb? Over a G7?
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It would interesting to see the line to get a sense of how it was used.
The notes can easily move to C major.
Ex. E G# C D# > E G B D or E G C D or C A B E etc.
From a G7 perspective:
E - 13
Ab - b9
C - 11
D# - #5
G13+sus (not my 1st choice)
From a C#/Db perspective
E - b3
G# - 5
B# - 7
D# - 9
DbmMa9 > Cma (believable enough as a progression) and combined with a G > C bass, two chord colors
moving to a common destination.
If I wanted to attempt a poor job of channeling forum member Jordan K's triad + one line of thinking:
Ab C Eb + E resolving perhaps to G B D + E
So what scale???
Ma7+ is found in several 7 note scales, Ab harmonic major, C# melodic and harmonic minor as well as
a few 8 note scales.
This augmented scale is interesting:
G G# B C D# E
It is far easier to compute what scales contain a given set of notes than it is to know what a musician is
hearing and thinking.
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
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Originally Posted by bako
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Look at the last half of measure 2.
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Originally Posted by EGad
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It's sounds OK after messing with it. It's an EMaj7+5 arpeggio like you say. It's an arpeggio not a scale.
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My initial thought was this:
(Keep in mind that I tend to have a different way of thinking and constructing, so this may not be helpful to anyone other than myself)...
A Maj7+5 chord is what I call T3, meaning that I just thinking of a major triad built on the 3rd of the harmony I'm working on. So an EMaj7+5 is just a G#/Ab major triad, with an E note below it.
Now one way I like to treat Maj7 chords is T5 (a major triad built on the 5th which yields what I would call a Maj9). In the key of C, I would get that by putting a a G major triad over a C major chord... Not G/C, G/C major. So if I were to play this as a 4 note voicing, I would likely play G/E, because I know the bass player is covering the low C root note. So then you get G triad over E over C... in other words... (building up) C-E-G-B-D... a CMaj9.
So Ab/E resolving to G/E
xx2(544) -> xx2(433)
x7x(898) -> x7x(787)
xx14(13.13.11) -> xx14(12.12.10)
If I were just working with the theory of this and had to build some voice leading through chords... that would pretty much do the job for me. Put a bass player underneath any of those play G -> C and you've got a killin V -> I cadence.
But once I checked out the actual pdf... I think it's even less confusing then that. The phrase over the CMaj7 part actually seems to be behaving the same way I'm talking about, where it appears to me to be based around the sound of a GMajor triad. If you just heard the beginning of measure 3 with not harmonic information written in, it looks and sounds, and behaves like a G major scale.
Do - Fa - Mi - Re - Do
The E note does jump us into that (which of course always works because it's the 3rd of the C major chord, so it could be a push, or it could just be still part of the G7 chord (13)... but the meat of the 2nd half of that measure, I'm just looking at that Ab triad. Ab triad going down to G major triad. Even if you held that Ab note instead of going down to the E, and then resolved it down to the G note... you'd still get the same melodic structure movement of Ab down to G.
That's how I'd interpret this for my ear and rip it off to try it in different inversions.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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I hear the C#, G# in bar one and D# in bar three as chromatic approach notes.
The E on the last 8th note, bar two could too be thought of as anticipating Cma7 instead of Ema7+.
The only appearance of the leading tone (B) is on beat four, bar one.
I hear bar two as toggling from a diatonic subdominant collection to a darker subdominant sound before resolving.
Bright to dark resolution is a common event. The note collections here seem more connected to the chordal content
than to scales.Last edited by bako; 08-10-2017 at 11:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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Thanks! That's helpful.. I like the T3 and T5 labels. Reminds me of the value of thinking about triads.
Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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[bako
This augmented scale is interesting:
G G# B C D# E
It is far easier to compute what scales contain a given set of notes than it is to know what a musician is
hearing and thinking.[/QUOTE]
I agree..
the augmented idea is a very good jumping point to the three key centers mentioned..as it contains triads major and minor and major 7th chords In Ab C and E..with implied ii7-V7 chords
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Listening to it, I would wonder if it's not just a typo. Eb sounds great for the last note in m2, and it's obviously cut and paste after that. I don't suppose it matters too much. The and of 4 basically "belongs" to the next beat much of the time anyway.
E nat doesn't seem as "in character" with the rest of it, but depending on tempo, probably doesn't really matter. There's often a lot of hand-wringing over things which end up being misprints. Is there a track that goes with it?
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I understand what you are saying and, of course, anything is possible. As I have progressed through the exercises, however, all or parts of this arpeggio reappear. Based on previous posts, there are a number of ways of looking at things, all of which make the E natural palatable. I also subsequently considered that for the G dom 7 chord, if you took all of the notes of the vanilla G Mixolydian scale and combined those notes with all the notes of the Ab Melodic minor, your typical "go to" altered scale, you would have all of the notes comprising an EM7+5. If no notes from either scale are "wrong", you would think there would be no wrong notes if you combined them. Just a random thought.
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Originally Posted by EGad
But if it were broken down into the simplest form and approached as an individual tonality (my definition meaning a basic triad over a particular chord structure), it doesn't take THAT long to become comfortable with it given its simplicity... and that allows for a fairly quick process in getting to improvising.
Say for instance just working on T5 over a Maj7 chord, so focusing on the G triad over CMaj7. Maybe comp the chord in a slow tempo, visualize the G triad, and then play a few of the notes, then comp the chord, improvise a few notes, etc... try and keep a slow but steady rhythm. Then once this is comfortable, we can add 1 or 2 note that will serve to create melodic tension and momentum. In this case, the A and the E work really well... which sets up a basic G major pentatonic scale over CMaj7. But the difference is that we should hopefully be able to hear, see, and feel the G major triad notes as the resolution points by approaching it this way. It doesn't need to take all that long to get to that point. And with a little patience, we should be able to take this tonality through the circle of 5ths and applied to difference positions. Then it can be used to develop voicings, melodies, improv, arranging, etc.
Then do something similar for the G7 chord that resolves to it. Ab major triad would not be my first go to triad for teaching this stuff... but it definitely works. The only thing is that I would treat this as a G7sus as I personally would not put the natural 4 (C) in the melodic triad over a non sus dominant7 chord. It can create some some interval problems. In this case, I'd then add a G note and an F note to create my pentatonic scale. Then again, same thing... comp the G7 chord, improv simple ideas with this pentatonic scale... circle of 5ths... etc.
Then try stringing together the 2 tonalities to get a V I cadence
G7
G-Ab-C-Eb-F
CMaj7
G-A-B-D-E
Definitely yields an interesting type of movement. Interesting to see how the G note stays the same, and then everything else resolves down a half step except for the Ab note which moves against the grain and resolves up a half step. I bet that could yield some fantastic voice leading ideas!
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Honestly, I don't think about that terminology all that much anymore, as once they become shapes on the fretboard corresponding to sounds, it becomes a little less necessary....
But it was essential for me for the first 6-12 months of thinking this way as it helped me transpose into new keys much faster, it helped me organize my thoughts when approaching a new tonality, and it helps (ongoing) anytime I try to do this stuff at the piano because my visual understanding is not at the same level on the keyboard as it is the fretboard... so I have to really keep the theory in mind when I'm working there.
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
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