-
Originally Posted by rlrhett
One thing that you were doing in the video that I am looking at a bit differently is that you seem to be focusing your attention on the different scale degrees as you are playing the different inversions. I may be wrong but I thought that the point was to generate movement within the same chord by using the inversions and connecting them with the related diminished chord.
So when I am learning the different inversions I am focusing on the root rather than the scale degrees. In that way, all of the G6 chords and their inversions can be used over G6 and you can generate movement over a static G major using all of the inversions and connecting them with the diminished chords. You can start with any of the inversions and go from there. Again, I am seeing them all as G6 in your example rather than thinking too much about the scale degree. The chord scale with the inversions becomes G6-Adim-G6-Adim-G6-Adim-G6-Adim and so on.
Also, in terms of using the method in tunes, if you see a 2 5 1 in G for example (ie Am7-D7-GM7) the idea I believe is to look at it through the lens of 6th chords so that progression becomes - C6-Am6-G6 and their related diminished chords...or using the 5th of the 6th thing G6-Am6-G6...or C6-Ebm6-D6 for an altered sound on the dominant and using the 5th of the 6 for the maj9 sound on the tonic...something like that.
I suspect that the BH method then creates possibilities with respect to harmonising tunes that wouldn't necessarily flow otherwise while also creating the opportunity to create nice movement within the chord of the moment.
Later it looks like BH creates even more movement and interest by adding neighbouring notes from related diminished chords to the 6th chords to add even more movement and more interesting progressions.
I could be wrong about this as I am just getting into it but that's how I am looking at it so far.
Keep up the good work.Last edited by ColinO; 04-12-2017 at 08:49 AM.
-
04-12-2017 08:23 AM
-
Here are some basic rules for using the Barry Harris chord-scales (taking C chords as the example):
C maj : use C6/dim
Cmin: use Eb6/dim (or Cmin6/dim if you want the min6 sound)
C7 : use Gmin6/dim
C7alt: use Dbmin6/dim. (Dbmin6 gives a C7#5b9 sound). Or use Edim chord, or Gdim, or Bbdim, or Dbdim, these give a C7b9 sound.
Cdim: use Cdim chord and move it in minor thirds (obviously!). You can also move around on dim chords using whole-half-whole-half steps if you want more movement, this also applies to the C7b9 useage above.
Cmin7b5 : use Ebmin6/dim.
Last edited by grahambop; 04-12-2017 at 01:35 PM.
-
To me, the most obvious basic application is on static chords lasting 2 measures, perhaps simply moving up or down the neck and alternating between the maj6 (or min6) chords and the diminished chords. Sometimes I will enclose the I (or i) chord with surrounding diminished chords or diminished chords that borrow the alto voice from the next highest chord.
I am curious to ask, though, how you guys might be using the BH approach when a chord lasts just one measure, or even less than one measure. What sort of comping rhythms are you playing over these faster moving changes?
I will sometimes precede the chord of the moment with a related diminished chord (with or without borrowing). For example, if there's one measure of C maj I will play a B diminished on the 4 or 4+ of the measure before.
The thing is, BH talks about freeing oneself from ii-V, so I'm wondering if anyone has some examples of moving "through" changes without simply substituting the BH chords for what the Real Book might notate as a ii-V. Without extensive use of borrowing notes, it seems that the basic approach is really alternating between V and I, as NSJ stated earlier in the thread.Last edited by wzpgsr; 04-12-2017 at 03:53 PM.
-
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
That is exactly where I am coming from, and the reason for me proposing this study group. I have heard of BH harmonization as a whole system for harmonization. A different way to think about harmonizing melodies and entire tunes outside of the traditional harmonized major scale. It seems to me like there is more to it than just a handful of new subs that can be used in place of fake book chords. I think there is a depth here that goes beyond just a new sub for a ii-V, but maybe I'm wrong.
The very next section in the book, "Brothers and Sisters" seems to speak to that. I admit I don't fully understand what "playing with your siblings" means. I hope to get there very soon. I'll do a video in the next day or two where I discuss some of the issues, like why min6 sibling when it seems like there is a maj6 sibling that would follow the exact same rule? Why a min6 on the dominant's bII when we just demonstrated a dim on that same note? I don't want to skip ahead, but that is what I see coming up.
There seems to be some resistance to dealing with the material systematically as a study group. Perhaps it was a mistake on my part to start at the beginning of the book. I just assumed there would other people who had not looked at this material who would appreciate a start to finish approach. Maybe let people get the basic building blocks first. I was hoping other people who were exploring this for the first time like me would post their discoveries as they worked it out (thanks grahambop for the Freddie Green tidbit!). I wasn't thinking of this as my personal quest for specific answers.
I apologize if anyone is getting frustrated by my pedantic approach, but I think I will continue to slog through in study group fashion. I think things get very interesting in the "Brothers and Sisters", "6th on the 5th", and "Major-Minor-Minor6" sections. But I don't fully understand them. There seems to be something just beyond my grasp there I hope to explore with fellow forumites.
-
I see the BH approach as a way to create more movement on the chords, that's a large part of it. A diminished chord is unstable, you've got to move away from it and go somewhere, so including diminished chords helps force you to keep moving. But it's also very simple, you're basically alternating tonic-dominant which is the standard movement in a lot of music e.g. Classical music.
It's also simple because you only need to learn the inversions of the 6th chords (everyone knows the diminished chords already, right?) so that is not much to learn really, then you can apply these chord-scales in all the contexts I described in post no. 28 above. So it's a lot easier than trying to move around on harmonised chords of the major scale for example. Wes Montgomery's chord solos use the BH chords to a large extent, you can see why he did that, it's the easiest way to create chord solos over the chord sequence of a tune.
When you've got the approach assimilated, it does make chord-melody stuff a lot easier. But for this I also draw on my knowledge of other chord voicings, I don't just use it in isolation.
It doesn't cover everything, you will need to tweak the chords sometimes. E.g. quartal chords are very useful and sound cool, but they are not in the BH system. But you only have to change one note usually to get them.
I see it as another tool in the toolbox, as it were. It's not the magical secret of the musical universe or anything like that. I guess what I'm saying is for me, the appeal is its simplicity and relative ease of application, above all.Last edited by grahambop; 04-12-2017 at 06:37 PM.
-
Another thing I will add, is that it is not easy at first to get your head round it. Because you've got to start seeing those major and minor 6th chords as 'multiple applications', as it were. So the same shapes can function as major, as minor, as dom7, as dom7 altered, as min7b5, depending on the context (see post 28 again!). When the underlying chord changes, you probably want to move to the 'nearest' 6th voicing on the neck, for the next chord, to create a smooth flow, voice-leading etc. At first this is not easy, you have to stop and look it up in the book perhaps.
I found I couldn't get used to this until I painstakingly applied it to a specific tune by going through the book and writing down all the chord moves, harmonising the tune, etc. That's why I did that 'My Romance' exercise, it took me ages! But after that, it all started to become more internalised and now I don't have to think about it so much.
So some up-front hard work on one tune may be needed to get going. Just playing through those chord scales didn't achieve that for me (as appealing as they may sound on their own).
-
Originally Posted by grahambop
-
Plugging along, here is the Harmonized Min6dim scale. I found this a lot less satisfying to play than the Harmonized Maj6dim scale. I always sounds unsettled and incomplete. Minor or not, there are just no sweet tones in this scale. Perhaps someone would like to demonstrate playing with these in a way that is pleasing or satisfying. It is not terrible or jarring, just too unsettled to live with for very long.
EDIT: I re-uploaded to YouTube. I don't know why there was this odd audio distortion the first time. Seems fixed now. Also I say "Drop 4" a lot when I obviously mean "Drop 2". Sorry.Last edited by rlrhett; 04-13-2017 at 03:34 PM.
-
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
-
The quickest way to use m6 on a dominant is to think of a m6 a P5 up.
G7? Dm6.
C7? Gm6
F7? Cm6
Bb7? Fm6
Eb7? Bbm6
etc.
But then what if we do this? Dm7--> Dm6. This is a simple shorthand ii-V to C without the V.
-
Originally Posted by NSJ
I don't know but reading ahead, BH talks about playing the 5th of the 6 - which I take to mean that over the Dm7 you can use the C6/dim chords as well as the F6. I don't know whether that is as easily accessed by just thinking of the Dm7 but it seems pretty easy to do using the F6 idea.
Maybe someone with a better handle on this can chime in?
-
Originally Posted by ColinO
the F6 you speak of as synonymous with Dm7 is the IV6 of C6.
See the simple math here?
I6=vim7
V6 = iiim7
IV6=iim7
bIII6=i7
ii6=vi7b5
Basically, I follow one simple rule: if I can recall something, that just means I've practiced it a million times. (I'm slow and require lots of repetition).
-
Originally Posted by NSJ
-
Originally Posted by NSJ
If I can ask you, since you have been through the BH stuff already, do you see a significant benefit in using the harmonised dim6 scales? I've just started looking at this and am having some trouble seeing a benefit of playing F6 inversions and Gdims rather than just using Dm7 inversions with Edims. Is there a payoff once I go through it?
-
Originally Posted by NSJ
-
Originally Posted by grahambop
That gets you into essential shell voicing territory.
My favorite shell voicing is on strings 432--voices dispersed as 3-M7-R. That minor 2nd between strings 3 and 2 is great! Even better is the melodic minor version, with the m3-M7-R.
-
I like min6dim on tonic minor chords a lot. It's pretty old school. You have to hear the major 6 on minor sound.
-
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
-
How about What Is This Thing Called Love? It has both major, minor and hybrid ii-Vs, has opportunities for sitting on maj and min 6 for two bars, and has that Ab7 to G7 that I never quite know what to do with. Seems like a well-rounded learning song for BH approach.
-
Originally Posted by grahambop
But I do think that - if one's going to practise - it's worth aiming for consistency in the voicings throughout registers and string sets.
For me, that - more than the manner in which strings are set in motion - is at once a terrifying nod to Tatum and an invitation to break out of yet another box.
-
Originally Posted by wzpgsr
Gm7b5 C7b9 Fm6
Is F minor 6-dim
Dm7b5 G7b9 Cmaj6
Is c major 6-dim
But I'm not sure how well this works (I am not near a guitar ATM)Last edited by christianm77; 04-13-2017 at 07:21 PM.
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
TBH I would try out a few things and see what I liked best. The blurring of the major/minor thing with the maj6-dim is a lot of funLast edited by christianm77; 04-13-2017 at 07:40 PM.
-
Actually thinking about it I tend to hear the BH scales from the point of view of tonicising a temporary key centre. So in the case of Ab7 G7 a good thing to do might be to use one of the dominant scales (G7-dim) or (G7b5-dim) even though there's no Ab.
Alan buddy, what do you think?
-
Originally Posted by christianm77
-
Originally Posted by rlrhett
/ Gm7b5 / C7 / Fm / Fm /
For Gm7b5, pick a suitable chord from Bbmin6/dim then move up or down that scale. I would only do about 3 chords per bar or it gets too 'busy'. I tend to start with a chord on the middle 4 strings around the middle of the neck, then you've got more options.
When you get to the C7, just find the nearest chord (I mean physically on the fingerboard) from the relevant 6/dim scale you want to use for C7. You'll get smoother movement and voice-leading that way. For dominant chords you have got more options, as follows:
C7: use Gmin6/dim.
C7b9: just use E diminished chords and move them in minor thirds or whole and half steps.
C7 altered (C7#5b9): use Dbmin6/dim.
It's up to you which of these 3 'paths' you choose, use your ear, which sounds best to you?
Move up or down whichever one you chose, until you get to Fm.
For Fm you can either use Fmin6/dim (if you want Fmin6 sound), or use Ab6/dim to get Fmin7 sound.
Now continue the same process for the rest of the progression. See, it's not that hard in principle.
It's also a good idea to practise the 6/dim scales so that you cross from one string set to another, e.g. start on the middle 4 strings then at some point cross to the appropriate chord on the top 4 strings and continue from there. Because you will need to do this on actual tunes.
I may be able to knock up an example on this tune, but it will have to wait a few days.Last edited by grahambop; 04-14-2017 at 01:54 PM.
Home, guitar playing and travel
Today, 06:11 PM in Everything Else