(scratching my head) the b-section of In Walked Bud ...

**Helgo** · 01-26-2017, 05:34 PM

Dear all,

After I received some much needed nice words a short while ago when my band broke up (thanks!), I am off to new shores: It seems like I am going to be part of a new quartet (sax, drums, double-bass and me

).

So we were jamming on that really nice Monk-tune "In Walked Bud". And when practicing, it occured to me: I have no idea how to "think" about that Db7-chord in the b-section.

The B-section of course is:

II: F-7 I % I Db7 I % :II

The overall tonality of the tune is Ab-major.

Can someone please shed some light on this, theoretically? Also, any hip scales I should check out playing over this?

Best,
H.

ps: If you haven´t heard Bobby Brooms incredible version of this, check it out:

Also, buy the album. It´s soooo gooooood!

**grahambop** · 01-26-2017, 06:05 PM

You can do a Pat Martino conversion on it and visualise it as Ab minor (if you find it easier to play on a minor chord than a dominant).

**Alter** · 01-26-2017, 06:37 PM

i think of it as a "special function" dominant chord, a dominant chord that's neither a secondary dominant, nor a tritone substitute. I 'd play a mixolydian #11 scale over it (also called Lydian b7), same notes as Ab melodic minor

**Helgo** · 01-27-2017, 05:25 PM

Thanks, guys!

So, completely unrelated ... it´s good that I didnt miss a connection.

I tried around with lydian dominant (mixo #11). Good sound. By adding the natural 11th to the scale I get a "bebop-scale" with chord tones 1, 3, #11, 13 on the strong beats. Good stuff ...

Cheers,
H.

**max chill** · 01-27-2017, 05:49 PM

fm7=a6
a6=I d7=IV
so, won't lydian be cool?

**christianm77** · 01-27-2017, 05:55 PM

bVI7(#11) I progression is not uncommon in standard in both major and minor keys

Out of Nowhere
Mood Indigo
I'm Beginning to See the Light
Lullaby of the Leaves
Stardust (B section)

Will add more examples when I think of them.

I would use lydian dominant or whole tone.

**Helgo** · 01-27-2017, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

(...) more of a resolving sus thing (...)

dear fuzz, I am as intrigued as I am confused

Can you please elaborate? You hear a Db7sus Voicing? Or what? What would be the harmonic or scalar implications of this?
Thanks for answering, if you find time.

Cheers,
H.

**ragman1** · 01-27-2017, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

I hear more of a resolving sus thing on the Db7

So do I (if that's what you meant). The Db7 is just the 'suspended' dom before the V, like the Eb7 before the D7 in All Blues or one of those tunes. He just hovers a lot on the Db7 before going back to the C7 and Fm again. Some versions omit the C7 or just squeeze it in.

Really, that Monk was just a big tease :-)

You can play Ab mel (Db lyd dom) over it. Or Fm blues (the B/Cb blue note works). Or Db whole-tone. Or C alt (Db mel). That sort of works. Also... try the Cb (B) melodic and/or harmonic minors. They have a certain charm too.

**ragman1** · 01-27-2017, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

I hear more of a resolving sus thing on the Db7

So do I (if that's what you meant). The Db7 is just the 'suspended' dom before the V, like the Eb7 before the D7 in All Blues or one of those tunes. He just hovers a lot on the Db7 before going back to the C7 and Fm again. Some versions omit the C7 or just squeeze it in.

Really, that Monk was just a big tease :-)

You can play Ab mel (Db lyd dom) over it. Or Fm blues (the B/Cb blue note works). Or Db whole-tone. Or C alt (Db mel). That sort of works. Also... try the Cb (B) melodic and/or harmonic minors. They have a certain charm.

Oh, F alt (Gb mel) works too.

**ragman1** · 01-27-2017, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

I hear more of a resolving sus thing on the Db7

So do I (if that's what you meant). The Db7 is just the 'suspended' dom before the V, like the Eb7 before the D7 in All Blues or one of those tunes. He just hovers a lot on the Db7 before going back to the C7 and Fm again. Some versions omit the C7 or just squeeze it in.

Really, that Monk was just a big tease :-)

You can play Ab mel (Db lyd dom) over it. Or Fm blues (the B/Cb blue note works). Or Db whole-tone. Or C alt (Db mel), that sort of works. Also... try the Cb (B) melodic and/or harmonic minors. They have a certain charm. F alt (Gb mel) works too.

Sorry, that's quite a lot.

**ragman1** · 01-27-2017, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Helgo

What would be the harmonic or scalar implications of this?

How to Improvise Over Sus Chords | jazzadvice.com

**ragman1** · 01-27-2017, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

But it only lasts a beat.

I know. I haven't listened to that recording but most versions say Abm/Db7, so it could sound briefly like a sus chord. Don't think it matters, especially as it's one beat!

But I discovered the sus chord site for someone else and it sounds like H wants to know - so he can have the whole caboodle :-)

(edit)

Are we talking about the vid above? Blimey, he's certainly pulling out the funny stuff for that one!

**ragman1** · 01-27-2017, 09:50 PM

See, I don't think the Db7 matters much. To me it's just a bluesy passing chord. No, really. If it's over-emphasized it goes out of kilter, if you know what I mean. I think it ought to sound natural (in a bluesy way).

**ragman1** · 01-27-2017, 09:55 PM

See, I don't think the Db7 matters much. To me it's just a bluesy passing chord. No, really. If it's over-emphasized it goes out of kilter, if you know what I mean. I think it ought to sound natural (in a bluesy way).

**ragman1** · 01-27-2017, 10:17 PM

I didn't mean your Gb in particular, I meant the Db7 generally. But I know the Abm has a Gb. Fwiw, there's a Gb in all the scales I suggested... er, except the lyd dom. Whoops :-)

**ragman1** · 01-28-2017, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Helgo

II: F-7 I % I Db7 I % :II

I've just realised that your chords are as above. The clip I posted before used Fm7/Bb7/Am7/Db7. Here's another one using your chords plus a short general jam. The clips are in order this time.

I have to say that, having done all this, The Db lyd dom (Ab mel) isn't my favorite option although technically right. Fm blues is

**ragman1** · 01-28-2017, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Helgo

II: F-7 I % I Db7 I % :II

I've just realised that your chords are as above. The clip I posted before used Fm7/Bb7/Am7/Db7. Here's another one using your chords plus a short general jam. The clips are in order this time.

I have to say that, having done all this, the Db lyd dom (Ab mel) isn't my favorite option although technically right. Fm blues is!

**grahambop** · 01-28-2017, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

See, I don't think the Db7 matters much. To me it's just a bluesy passing chord. No, really. If it's over-emphasized it goes out of kilter, if you know what I mean. I think it ought to sound natural (in a bluesy way).

I wouldn't just ignore it, doesn't sound too good. An important chord tone is the 5th note of Fm7 (=C) changing to the 7th note of Db7 (=B). So at least play a line that exploits this semitone change in the chord tones, it will sound much better.

**Helgo** · 01-28-2017, 02:55 PM

Man, I love this forum!

**rpjazzguitar** · 01-28-2017, 04:41 PM

I don't claim to be particularly good at this stuff, but here's how I'd be likely to think about it.

The change is Fm7 to Db7. That's pretty close to Fm7 to Abm7 (Abm7 has a Gb, where Db7 has an F).
Anyway, one thing that would occur to me is to play an idea that works for Fm7 and then play the idea up a m3. I might have to adjust to account for that Gb, F thing, but I'd do that by ear.

The foregoing is the way I hear that Db7. That is, as a m3 up and held to create a little tension.

Another way I might think about it is to rename that Fm7 to Ab6. Same notes, and the bass player's root will take care of the overall sound of the chord and keep it Fm7). Anyway, Ab6 to Db7 is almost the same thing as Ab6 to Abm6, so I might play my Fm7 idea and then play it again, but lowering the C to a B. Then on the last couple of beats where it goes to C7, I can drop that B to a Bb as a kind of guide tone.

The second way will work, but I kinda like the first way better. It's more consistent with my impression of the tune.

**PMB** · 01-28-2017, 07:54 PM

In Walked Bud is based on Irving Berlin's Blue Skies. Maybe Monk came up with the Db7 change in the bridge as an alternative to the move at the same point in the earlier tune from relative major (Ab) to the IV chord (Db)?

**ragman1** · 01-28-2017, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by Helgo

Man, I love this forum!

Well, that's okay, as long as it helps...

Btw, if you detect a sort of rumbly sound about halfway through that second clip, it's not the bass. It was the washing machine on spin downstairs... sorry about that

**ragman1** · 01-28-2017, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I wouldn't just ignore it, doesn't sound too good. An important chord tone is the 5th note of Fm7 (=C) changing to the 7th note of Db7 (=B). So at least play a line that exploits this semitone change in the chord tones, it will sound much better.

I did, the blue note on Fm blues. However... if you overdo it you can get the Pink Panther effect :-)

**Vladan** · 01-29-2017, 05:16 AM

I'm totally with Fuzzthebee, you have tune in Ab, it's a blues, so what's a big deal about Db, then?

Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

**ragman1** · 01-29-2017, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Vladan

I'm totally with Fuzzthebee, you have tune in Ab, it's a blues, so what's a big deal about Db, then?

Well, the way the OP's got the chords you have 2 bars of Fm7 and then 2 bars of Db7 so it can't really be brushed over.

If it was a sort of normal blues, okay, you could just play Ab blues over it. It works but it might get samey. If you're doing a more jazzy beboppy sort of thing you're going to need a scale or two to fill it out.