(scratching my head) the b-section of In Walked Bud ...

[christianm77]

Well if you want a 'bebop thing' - why don't you take a look at what a great bop improvisor did on these changes?

[christianm77]

OK - so what's PB doin' then?

I'll take a listen when I get a moment

[Helgo]

Man, I love this forum!

Seriously, though. You ask a simple question and you get kind and helpful answers, including soundfiles (!), and the thread evolves into a deep discussion about the topic. Thanks, everybody.

Well if you want a 'bebop thing' - why don't you take a look at what a great bop improvisor did on these changes?

Christian -- thanks for your input, especially the post with the examples for bVI#11 above. I wasn´t really looking for vocabulary but more for an understanding of the section and a few ideas to try around with. The "bebop"-scale I mentioned above (lydian dominant with an added natural 11th) ... well, maybe I misnamed it. What I meant to imply is that I added a chromatic passing tone to make the 1, 3, #11, and 13 fall on the downbeats. I like this sound and effect and thought maybe others might wanna play around with this, too.


Also, the fact that the tune is basically a blues in Ab, and that therefore a Db7 shouldn´t throw me off -- well that completely flew by me.

Interesting, though: I pride myself in knowing a lot about Blues and a lot about Jazz Theory ... still miss basic things sometimes. Well, I probably had my head somewhere else ... it´s always good to learn and always good to be humbled.

Best,
H.

[christianm77]

Christian -- thanks for your input, especially the post with the examples for bVI#11 above. I wasn´t really looking for vocabulary but more for an understanding of the section and a few ideas to try around with. The "bebop"-scale I mentioned above (lydian dominant with an added natural 11th) ... well, maybe I misnamed it. What I meant to imply is that I added a chromatic passing tone to make the 1, 3, #11, and 13 fall on the downbeats. I like this sound and effect and thought maybe others might wanna play around with this, too.

That's what analysis is for. Listening and transcription is not about regurgitating ideas 'vocabulary.' Bleeeuuuurgh. Who wants to do that?

You OP is not a stupid question, but I realise I can only tell you the examples based on what I do and the musicians I have transcribed. But to me it's more like, well this is what some dudes on the internet think, but wouldn't you be more interested in what your favourite players do?

Who are your favourite players? Let try and find a recording of that tune, and we'll get to work, I'm interested to find out too, so I'm happy to help out.

Much more interesting than talking theory on the internet with any context, I would think? To be honest I find the existence of theory in any other context completely baffling, more akin to a crossword puzzle than music.

[rpjazzguitar]

it. What I meant to imply is that I added a chromatic passing tone to make the 1, 3, #11, and 13 fall on the downbeats. I like this sound and effect and thought maybe others might wanna play around with this, too.


Hijacking the thread a bit:

I've never understood why anybody adds a note to a scale so that the chord tones fall on the strong beats.

Sure, they do, but only if you're playing every note in the scale in a row. It seems to me that doing that won't make for a very interesting solo. In fact, it's what I go out of my way to avoid -- having practiced scales too much (running them in order) back in the day.

I don't have any problem with the harmonic value of the added note. I just don't understand the reasoning about adding a note so that your strong beats are chord tones. Does anybody really want to play like that?

Sorry if this is a rant.

[christianm77]

it. What I meant to imply is that I added a chromatic passing tone to make the 1, 3, #11, and 13 fall on the downbeats. I like this sound and effect and thought maybe others might wanna play around with this, too.


Hijacking the thread a bit:

I've never understood why anybody adds a note to a scale so that the chord tones fall on the strong beats.

Sure, they do, but only if you're playing every note in the scale in a row. It seems to me that doing that won't make for a very interesting solo. In fact, it's what I go out of my way to avoid -- having practiced scales too much (running them in order) back in the day.

I don't have any problem with the harmonic value of the added note. I just don't understand the reasoning about adding a note so that your strong beats are chord tones. Does anybody really want to play like that?

Sorry if this is a rant.

It's about gaining control. But yes too much of that and a solo can sound a bit rhythmically flat.

I've practiced that type of thing a lot over the past couple of years. It's good to be able to do it so you can describe changes clearly using step wise scales.

[Helgo]

christian -- thanks, again. You should know: For me theory and analysis are not only a means to an end, but an integral part of my hobby. I like to think of it actually as a different, but related, hobby. I enjoy playing and practicing a lot; also I enjoy talking, reading and writing and thinking about music (and clearly, you do, too!). I honestly appreciate your offer to take time wo work through something together. I may hit you up on that.
But, transcribing and practicing are things that I am abled to do on my own. Discussing and reflecting always works better with more people involved, that´s why I posted my question(s) here.

rpjazzguitar -- nevermind, I enjoyed your "rant". I can´t tell you about other people but I can tell you why I have been fascinated with "bebop scales" (i.e. scales with an added chromatic) for a while now:
One of the greatest weaknesses in my playing has been/still is, that I play(ed) only very short lines. Practing bebop scales allowed me to expand on that and create longer and longer lines that are meaningful harmonically (and, to me, emotionally).
Also, there is way more to do with them than "just" run the scales up and down. You can mix with arpeggios, approach patterns, licks etc.
I am not trying to argue or to convince you of something. Just wanted to shed some light on why I personally find these kinds of scales attractive and how they are useful to me.


Of course, your mileage my vary. Nothing wrong with that

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=Helgo;737066]christian -- Practing bebop scales allowed me to expand on that and create longer and longer lines that are meaningful harmonically (and, to me, emotionally).
Also, there is way more to do with them than "just" run the scales up and down. You can mix with arpeggios, approach patterns, licks etc.>>.

I appreciate the response. One thing I have learned over and over is that, whatever your approach, there's a great player who did it some other way.

That said, here is the way I prefer to think about it. I prefer to think of the notes of a scale as not having any order. That is, to consider it as an unordered pool of notes to choose from as you create melody. So, in this way of thinking, there doesn't seem to be a place for the idea that you're better off running a scale with 8 notes rather than 7 because of where the strong beats fall. It's irrelevant. You create melody and that melody takes precedence.

In my own playing I try to get away from playing scales in order, although I do it because I practiced them a lot when I was younger and, when the tempo is too fast for me to think, my fingers (not any higher brain function) finds those notes. I'm worse with arpeggios because I still practice some of them in order, because I need the options when I'm trying to do my poor imitation of playing fast. But, this is not my goal. My goal is to know all the chord tones of the chords I use as quickly as I know the notes in a C7 and then make melody.

This is not to say anything against the added note. It may make great sense to add to the pool. It's just the notion of playing the notes in a particular order that doesn't feel right to me.

[Helgo]

I appreciate the response.

Likewise!

That said, here is the way I prefer to think about it. I prefer to think of the notes of a scale as not having any order. That is, to consider it as an unordered pool of notes to choose from as you create melody.

I couldn´t agree more! It took me years -- seriously, about a decade -- of learning to play Jazz before I realized this. I would always hear things like "play this scale over that chord" and two things about this frustrated me to no end:
a) this was incredibly hard for me to achieve.
b) I never liked the result.

This led to me never really practicing scales that much. You write that you became unsatisfied with your playing because you practiced scales so much that they became a mindless go-to thing. Let´s just say that this was never an issue for me

So today, when I am practicing scales, I will usually practice "bebop"-scales because I can make great and hip sounding long-ish lines with them on the spot after I have them in my fingers.

One thing I have learned over and over is that, whatever your approach, there's a great player who did it some other way.

Absolutely. Also: There are as many ways to learning Jazz as there are aspiring players.