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I'm sure this has come up before, so my apologies if it's a boring subject. But re the title, I have to admit I've never really understood the convention re naming dominant chords with altered notes, especially in regard to what I generally think of as an altered 5th. I work with a keyboard player who generally writes +11 or b13 - it doesn't seem to matter in practice, as we both know what the other means (he sometimes writes b10 where I'd say #9 as well, but perhaps I'd better leave that one alone for now).
I have found it's possible to include both the altered 5th notes in a chord voicing, and even the natural 5th as well, for example:
565665 would be an A7 with both sharp and flat 5
575665 has both natural 5 and sharp 5
556576 is a D7 with flat 5, natural 5 and sharp 5 all in there (natural 5th in the bass)
...except in such cases I may well be wrong in my terminology.
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01-12-2017 08:27 AM
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I thought the distinction comes from the scale notes of the key signature.
But now I read that and question , wondering .
Sharp 5 and flat 13 are two different tones aren't they?
If I am in the key of C , #5 would be a G# but a b13 would be an F# -
Did I say this right or do I also have some learning to do?
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IMO you use 11th and 13th when they are in higher octave than root and 5th when they are same octave.
But the good thing is to make names in most clear and logical way. So the chord 565665 could be written A7b5b13 (no 5th)
Originally Posted by amyFB
No b13 in key of C is AbLast edited by Tomcat; 01-12-2017 at 08:51 AM.
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Hi - you're right about the sharp 5 in the key of C being a G#, but a flat 13 would be an Ab - so the same note. Originally Posted by amyFB
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b13 in C would be Ab(G#) Originally Posted by amyFB
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So there's no reason for naming one way or the other to do with the overall harmony and where the chord sits in relation to that? If so, I'm happy enough, as it keeps things simple and just a matter of practicality, but forgive me - I do wonder if there's some sophisticated understanding of music harmony/theory that would lead to a distinction. Originally Posted by Tomcat
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Those #23rd chords always give me trouble.
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Just to add to my original post, I've just realised that 585655 is a rather pretty A7 voicing with the #5/b13 placed low on the A string, and natural 5th higher up.
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Oh poo , I still have a puzzlement then. Originally Posted by ColinO
I thought that to determine the 13 I count up from the 8.
8 is the octave of 1, whose 5 tone is a G.
8 + 5 = 13.
Now, math being my absolute worst skill,
Help me grok the lesson please!
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So if the octave i.e. 8th above the root C is another C (which of course it is) then a 9th = D, 10th = E, 11th = F, 12th = G, and 13th = A. So flatten the 13th, and you get an A flat. Originally Posted by amyFB
Usually a mistake to bring maths into things!
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I don't really like math. The 13th is the 13th note counting up from 1. Or easier - the 6th note counting up from 1. Doing it your way with math, you would have to not count the 1 - ie it would be the 5th note after (not counting the 1). Originally Posted by amyFB
If we did it your way, the the 5th of C would be F - ie 1+4=5.
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What you mean with "overall harmony" ? The names should follow degrees of a scale in given tonality. Originally Posted by Meggy
The same pitch - different note names:
in Cmajor b13 is Ab and #5 is G#
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Hi, what I mean is is there a reason to specifically say one or the other, (i.e. #5 or b13) because of the way the chord functions given it's place in a particular chord sequence. Originally Posted by Tomcat
And of course the names follow the degrees of the scale as you say, but how does one know which degree of the scale to call the note in question - forgive me, you haven't really answered that one.
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One answer Meggy is that the b13 usually implies that there is a natural 5th in the chord. A #5 chord would not have a natural 5.
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I would have thought that, theoretically, #5 and b5 means that the fifth should be altered/replaced. #11 and b13 doesn't necessarily tell me to replace the 5th, but rather indicates an additional scale/chord note (the #4th and b6th).
Doesn't make much of a difference on guitar though, as we have a very limited number of strings and fingers. That natural 5th is usually the first to go
Last edited by Runepune; 01-12-2017 at 10:13 AM.
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These designations are often used interchangeably or loosely in lead sheets, but I don't think the question is boring, or irrelevant to a good grasp of harmony. The altered 5th's (#5, b5) occur in the altered dominant scale, and the #5 also occurs in the whole tone scale.
The raised 11 is the fourth note of the fourth mode of the melodic and harmonic minor scales (lydian dominant chord, dom7#11), and the flat 13 is the sixth note of the fifth mode of the melodic and harmonic minor scales (dom7b13 chord).
There is probably more that could be said about these nomenclatures that's above my pay grade and best addressed by some of the forum pros.
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Ad. 1 - yes, there may be a situation that voice leading in chord progression calls for specific name Originally Posted by Meggy
Hi, what I mean is is there a reason to specifically say one or the other, (i.e. #5 or b13) because of the way the chord functions given it's place in a particular chord sequence.
And of course the names follow the degrees of the scale as you say, but how does one know which degree of the scale to call the note in question - forgive me, you haven't really answered that one.
Ad. 2 - one needs to make the choice trying to be as easily readable and understood as possible
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Thank you and everyone else who helped clarify this for me. Originally Posted by ColinO
Frm now on I will count always from 1. (This does explan a number of previous failed efforts to figure stuff out)
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Thanks for this Tomcat - I wasn't trying to be awkward, or implying any disrespect to your good self. Originally Posted by Tomcat
Ad. 1 - yes, there may be a situation that voice leading in chord progression calls for specific name
Ad. 2 - one needs to make the choice trying to be as easily readable and understood as possible
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#11 chord can contain natural 5.
b5 chord obviously not.
In real practice they are often mistaken and signs are used with no reference to actual harmony.
In these examples it is important to have hamonic context - to iunderstand how you can interprete these chords.I have found it's possible to include both the altered 5th notes in a chord voicing, and even the natural 5th as well, for example:
565665 would be an A7 with both sharp and flat 5
575665 has both natural 5 and sharp 5
556576 is a D7 with flat 5, natural 5 and sharp 5 all in there (natural 5th in the bass)
Besides - this nomenclature makes sence in more or less diatonic concept... alteration is possible when we have something ti be altered. Whenever the relations becom 'chromiticized' - that is altered tones become more or less equal to natural... we get into another system. And convention with sharps and flats does not reflect any more properly (though still can be used to a certain degree)Last edited by Jonah; 01-12-2017 at 10:41 AM.
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These are good questions , and have been discussed often before. Not the easiest type of things to find Inforum search I would imagine though.
In my opinion, this kind of chord theory is best understood by respelling scales in thirds, as full 13th arpeggios, if you will. I used to view this is real nerdy, "get out of piece of paper" kind of stuff, but if you use a positional, second finger reference for working these out, like Reg or Rosenwinkel would, you can actually see it pretty well on the fretboard. Piano works too.
Anyway, write out scale degrees in the key of G. Gmaj13, in thirds: G B D E F# A C E. 13579.11.13. right? That's the I chord.
The II is Am13. ACEGBDF#. (notice that the letters are easy once you've done one of them in the key . Each 13th is just an "inversion" of all of the others in the same key.) Anyway, those scale degrees are 1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13. Do the same for the other scale degrees and write them out.
If you get to parallel minor, G harmonic minor, it's the same set of notes, but with b3 and b6, Bb and Db. Go through the same process, and you'll notice that the 5th scale degree has a natural five AND a flat 13.
The 5th degree of harmonic minor is the basic reference for everything else we sub for dominant, at least the way I understand it as a pedestrian theory student. You can sub the 3rd degree of harmonic minor or the 4th or 7th degrees melodic minor, And basically b13 of harmonic minor is the context/justification/"reference" for all of those subs. When I use words like "justification", that's not just theoretical "rules" type talk, either. It's what your ears tell you when you hear that information, whether you're a musician or not, whether you know theory or not.
7b13 therefore, it is kind of ambiguous, and leaves options somewhat open. There are common practices though, such as avoiding nat5 to allow the soloist to go where they need to.
Of course ALTERED is one of the big subs, and altered is VERY confusing in the beginning, because it's not functional. Is usually spelled in reference to the relative functional V7. So you don't just stack the thirds in spelling the numbers. 1 b9 #9 3 b5 #5 b7 is how all of the "scale " is spelled, not in thirds but seconds. Anyway, no natural 5 present. So 7#5 for most jazzers implies ALTERED scale pitch collection and chord extension possibilities. 7b5 could be different things, again, more ambiguous. One of the things it COULD be is Lydian dominant, 7#11. So one is SPECIFIC, outlining harmonic direction and pitch collection, and the other is more general and ambiguous.
Anyway, I need to stop . Bored, stuck, riding shotgun in traffic. This would be a good opportunity for a legendary JohnR, Reg, or Christian type thing.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-12-2017 at 11:09 AM.
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This is why music theory is so much easier on piano, ain't it?
I think somebody once said 9 out of 10 #5's written in charts should be b13. Maybe.
Clarity is most important, and using your ears. Generally, I see either of these and I'm not including a perfect 5th in my voicing...as for what gets played over it, #5 seems to first suggest whole tone ideas to me, b13 gets at MM harmony, but it's altered dominants, generally speaking, it's a point of tension...or the beginning of Juju...context matters.
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Really really great post- my inner nerd has been awakened Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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I don't think it matters.
Technically any alteration over the octave should include the notes beneath it. So a b13 should include the 9 and 11. Not that one necessarily plays them all on a guitar for practical reasons.
So, technically, a G7#5 would imply G B D# F and a G7b13 would imply G B D F A C D#...
But, of course, it's just played 3x344x as we all know. Or xx3443. Or any of the others. It's a question of finding the sound you want.
Joe Pass: 'I don't like theory, it confuses me'.
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Although I essentially agree with all the answers given above, I thought I'd share my ideas about the topic.
So to the OP, a b13 and a #5 is the same note. So its the same sound. The name is "after the fact".
Chords are usually first defined as stacked thirds, the lowest note called the root, then 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th. But then you learn about inversions and extensions and alterations, and so the order gets jumbled, and questions of terminology gets confusing.
Any attempt to "mathematize" this runs into problems:
Why not play random note clusters while comping? why not just play
Cmaj13(#9b9#5#11) over the whole form? You'll always be playing the right notes!
In my view, in jazz guitar, it is best to completely ignore "root and 5th":that's the bass player's domain. As a comping or soloing guitarist, you should view the order (of importance) of notes building chords differently: 3rd (or flat 3rd) is first, 7th (or flat 7th) is second. Everything else is a sound or color that through practice you get to know and understand how/when to use, regardless of what that sound might be named. (of course in solo guitar you want to cover the bass player's role *in addition* so you might think of the root and 5th, but as a separate ingredient, rather than part of the harmony)
If you aren't sure, it is best to not use anything beyond 3 and 7 until you know exactly what the sound is, and intend to use that sound. As long as you can identify from a chart whether a chord is major, minor, or dominant, you'll be ok with just the 3rd and 7th in a comping situation.
So if you see a chord symbol with a b5 or you see one with a #11 in a chart, the intent may be the same or it may be completely different, depending on the context (as many of the answers upthread suggest). For example, in Bebop you might see G7#11 but you probably won't see a Gmaj7#11. in Bebop a G7#11 is more likely to be a II dominant chord than an altered V chord, and as a II dominant using both the #11 and the 5 might be OK in a soloing or comping, but maybe it would be more common to use the #5 rather than the 5 if the G7#11 is a V chord resolving to a C. In 70s straight ahead jazz Maj7#5 became a popular sound, but the sound is the combination of 3 7 and #5, not the #5 by itself, and a 13th might or might not) be a nice note to use over this chord. (eg a Gmaj7#5 might also be spelled B/G, and the 13th (E) from a Gmaj point of view is 4th from a B point of view, but sometimes a 4th is considered an "avoid note" over a major: so context determines whether to use both the 13th and #5)
So my point can be stated more rudely as "if you have to ask you are not ready to understand the answer" i.e. context/stylistic convention determines whether the symbol #5 or #11 or b5 or b13 excludes using a 5, etc. Chord symbols and note names are just ways for musicians to communicate the sound they are after, but precisely what rules they intend to apply to their notation comes from the sound, not the nomenclature. And as an improvisor you first should understand what was intended, then decide whether you want to follow the intent or to ignore it.
Incidentally, when you listen to great jazz guitarists, you'll hear that many of them are masters at peppering their single note solos with 2-note chords, typically 3&7, because they know this is all they need to imply the harmony. I think practicing comping with no roots, 5ths, or colors is a valuable exercise because it turns comping and single note soloing into two ends of a spectrum of improvising.Last edited by pkirk; 01-12-2017 at 01:25 PM.
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