When is a flat 5 a sharp 11? or a sharp 5 a flat 13? and does it matter?

[christianm77]

I play what it's important for me.
Sometimes I play C7+ instead of C7+9, C7 instead of C7b9, sometimes C7+4, could sound weird but it sounds good.
On piano I play voicings : C7 = C13 (E A Bb D) ; C-7 = C-9 (Eb G Bb D) ; C7+9 = C7+9 (E G# Bb Eb) ; CMaj7 = CMaj9 (E G B D)
All chords are extended.
For C7b9 I play a diminished chord...

When it's too complicated or too uncomfortable for me, I just play R 3 7 !

To be honest, there are few situations in straight-ahead where 1 3 7 isn't a good idea (or just 3 7 if you are with bass.)

Mastering 3 7 with a melody note in the top voice is basically all you need to start delving into simple arrangements for trios etc.

[mr. beaumont]

Arrrrrgh....people who write + to mean # deserve light beer and American tequila.

[Lionelsax]

To be honest, there are few situations in straight-ahead where 1 3 7 isn't a good idea (or just 3 7 if you are with bass.)

Mastering 3 7 with a melody note in the top voice is basically all you need to start delving into simple arrangements for trios etc.

Sure, playing 1 3 7 is bad when no one plays the same tune, I agree.

[Lionelsax]

I'm sure this has come up before, so my apologies if it's a boring subject. But re the title, I have to admit I've never really understood the convention re naming dominant chords with altered notes, especially in regard to what I generally think of as an altered 5th. I work with a keyboard player who generally writes +11 or b13 - it doesn't seem to matter in practice, as we both know what the other means (he sometimes writes b10 where I'd say #9 as well, but perhaps I'd better leave that one alone for now).

I have found it's possible to include both the altered 5th notes in a chord voicing, and even the natural 5th as well, for example:

565665 would be an A7 with both sharp and flat 5
575665 has both natural 5 and sharp 5
556576 is a D7 with flat 5, natural 5 and sharp 5 all in there (natural 5th in the bass)

...except in such cases I may well be wrong in my terminology.

On a dominant chord, +11 doesn't disturb a lot I guess (tritone substitution).

C7 +11 = C E G Bb D F# = F# alt or kind of

b13 ? You mean there is a perfect 5th too.

C E G Bb D F# Ab ? Why not playing a cluster (F# G Ab) ? Difficult to play...

But remember that Monk used to add a major 7 on a dominant chord.

Man, do you play with an accordion ?

[rpjazzguitar]

If it says 7alt, I'm likely to play 7b9b13. In practice, this means that if the chord is G7alt, I may play xx3446, which I might otherwise think of as Db13. So it's a tritone sub for G7, on top of a G7, more or less.

If the chord is G7#9 I'm likely to play the same thing. I don't assume there should be a D rather than a D#. Usually the D# sounds better.

But, if the chart says G7#5, I'll think about it. That spelling seems to be associated with a different kind of usage. More specific to that sound rather than generic dominant with alterations.

[matt.guitarteacher]

There's one other thing that I don't know has been discussed here. Put aside considerations for playing with OTHERS for a minute.

Even with the limitations of voicing things on the guitar, you're not limited to a single voicing per-chord-symbol, nor would you necessarily WANT to chuck away at one voicing only. Again, I think it's worth knowing options about what is possible, considering ALL information: chord symbol, melody, preceding chords, general context etc.

[Lionelsax]

If it says 7alt, I'm likely to play 7b9b13. In practice, this means that if the chord is G7alt, I may play xx3446, which I might otherwise think of as Db13. So it's a tritone sub for G7, on top of a G7, more or less.

If the chord is G7#9 I'm likely to play the same thing. I don't assume there should be a D rather than a D#. Usually the D# sounds better.

But, if the chart says G7#5, I'll think about it. That spelling seems to be associated with a different kind of usage. More specific to that sound rather than generic dominant with alterations.

Yes, you're absolutely right, there is no semi-tone in G7+ or G7#5, same thing for me.
But like I said take G7+9 avoid the +9 and you've got G7+
Take G7alt avoid the b9 you've got G7+
Take G7b9 avoid the b9 you've got G7

G7 alt or +9 = augmented 5th
G9, G7b9 = perfect 5th

[Doublea A]

This is a great question. I believe that the question of whether you call a note a G# or an Ab is dependent on the harmonic motion of the progression. For example G-7, C7#5, Fmaj7. The harmonic motion features G to G# to A. However, if you want to feature a downward motion (Bb to Ab to F) you refer to the chord as a C7b13. The note is same note, but the harmony implies the preferred motion of the upper extensions.


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[matt.guitarteacher]

This is a great question. I believe that the question of whether you call a note a G# or an Ab is dependent on the harmonic motion of the progression. For example G-7, C7#5, Fmaj7. The harmonic motion features G to G# to A. However, if you want to feature a downward motion (Bb to Ab to F) you refer to the chord as a C7b13. The note is same note, but the harmony implies the preferred motion of the upper extensions.


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Chord symbols aren't so directly tied to MELODIC enharmonic spelling though, and have their own conventions for spelling. They are somewhat they're own deal, and there is very often "conflict" between the two, if you want to call it that.

[Doublea A]

Isn't harmonic motion the determinating factor in calling a chord #5 or a b13 ?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Isn't harmonic motion the determinating factor in calling a chord #5 or a b13 ?

Sure, but aren't you talking about the MELODIC motion of one voice in the harmony? They are not necessarily the same thing. Your ear doesn't care whether the saxophonist is reading/thinking D-flat or C#, if the chord of the moment is A7, and there very often ARE those kind of conflicts with individual voices/harmony.

Anyway, 7#5 is sometimes an indication of there not being a natural five vs 7b13 implying possible ambiguity. You can play your leadline against either one, but that doesn't necessarily give the whole story regarding additional pitches/extensions.

[Doublea A]

Well said.
Thanks Matt.

[Reg]

So notation or verbal conversations about spelling whatever... has a basic a reference. What you call a note or how you spell a chord etc... has standard meaning... very physical results.

If your calling what your talking about, notating or playing a isolated event. NO RELATIONSHIP to tune, chord, phrase whatever you played before or are going to play after. Spelling doesn't really matter, call and spell anyway you choose.

But if your actually using notation, spelling whatever you want to call the action of implying what your playing or hearing in some context..... there is very standard common practice notation and understanding.

Notation or spelling of music has harmonic relationships, that means, what you call or spell a note or chord has a harmonic reference... a Tonal Reference.

Depending on your level of understanding music.... will reflect how you understand what reference(s), you use or are aware of...

The simplest approach is to just use the root as the reference for spelling, and also be aware of what harmonic context that root is within.

Most music isn't complicated... we generally try and make it more that it is. When talking about scales use basic number sequence...1, 2, 3 ,4 ,5 ,6, 7 with accidentals, ( sharps and flats ). When talking chords use 3rds, 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13 again with accidentals.

Keep it simple...

The next level begin to get complicated... because now you need to make choices as to what possible context the note or chord is functioning as.... Function is just what type of movement or motion the note or chord creates... or even what you want it to have.

Now you should be aware of where the chord it harmonically from. I can and have explained these concepts many time before... but not now.

Generally just finish spelling whatever chord or note your working with.... the complete scale or chord with all extensions and generally it's pretty obvious whats what.

There are always exceptions ... but there is very standard common practice... How chords are spelled and what notes or tensions are called and spelled.

Generally when you can't find a simple mechanical approach for spelling or naming of notes... your not getting it right.

#11 is very common, # 5 is not.

Most chords used in jazz are from maj/min harmony, and chords from Harmonic and Melodic Minor. In the last 20 years some chords from Harmonic Maj. and of course you can force diminished spellings.

The next level of organization gets more complicated again... Modal relationships... embellishments from Maj/min functional harmony become functional. no one cares etc...

[ragman1]

Personally I play what sounds best.

If G7#5 as 321xxx sounds better in context than xx3443, play it. If not, not. And it probably won't.

As for a dom chord containing both a natural 5 and a #5, it's possible. 35344x (or just x5344x) is a not a bad sound.

[Doublea A]

Sure, but aren't you talking about the MELODIC motion of one voice in the harmony? They are not necessarily the same thing. Your ear doesn't care whether the saxophonist is reading/thinking D-flat or C#, if the chord of the moment is A7, and there very often ARE those kind of conflicts with individual voices/harmony.

Anyway, 7#5 is sometimes an indication of there not being a natural five vs 7b13 implying possible ambiguity. You can play your leadline against either one, but that doesn't necessarily give the whole story regarding additional pitches/extensions.

So a #5 negates the existence of a natural 5 in that particular scale whereas a b6 does not.


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[Jonah]

You see.. the thing is that we use diatonic 7 notes borrowed from classical... and the alteration is reffered to these 7 notes...

But the harmoniy is getting so extended that sometimes it just loses sense...
in some cases to be more accuate we should have used 12 notes - or 8 or 9... etc...
Because this nonenclature makes us think about alteretion even in the cases where there's no alteration at all..

[matt.guitarteacher]

So a #5 negates the existence of a natural 5 in that particular scale whereas a b6 does not.

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I'd guess. I'm no expert , and I don't know that there's a 100% "right" answer, especially considering a lot of chord symbols are just wrong. Might be easier to talk about what a chord symbol SHOULD be to be RIGHT.

Anyway, I had forgotten Reg's recurring response to these questions until he posted above. Basically: go ahead and figure out what any given chord WOULD be, if spelled as a 13th, and it answers itself.

Very practical and straightforward, and gets past all the philosophical BS.

[Lionelsax]

In classical music there are some altered chords, it's all about tension and resolution.

V I in C

F goes to E
B goes to C
G goes to G

G goes to C


Then came other things without taking about dominant 9th of dominant.

Altered 5ths came in the XIXth

V I in C

D# goes to E
B goes to C
G goes to G

G goes to C


Db goes to C
B goes to C
F goes to E

G goes to C


We notice like in jazz that perfect 5ths hasn't got any kind of harmonic value, if they are omitted it's better, it depends how move the notes.


Liszt and Chopin introduced another thing

I to IV and I to VI with augmented 5th

G# goes to A
E goes to F
C goes to C

C goes to F


G# goes to A
E goes to E
C goes to C

C goes to A


When there is a minor 6th, it's an inverted chord.


"Cadence napolitaine"

Db bass F / G7 / Cmin

Db goes to B goes to C
Ab goes to G goes to G
F goes to F goes to Eb

F goes to G goes to C

It's just a way to avoid a diminished chord, on the other hand it's a kind of surprise.


In a jazz context, if you think that Db can be DbMaj7

For sure a perfect 5th and a minor 6th will be played at the same moment.


DbMaj7 bass F
G7+9
Cmin7

[Noah D'Innocenzo]

A #5 or b5 implies an alteration to the BASIC 4 note 7th chord and these notes REPLACE the natural 5th.

Ex: Standard G7 chord: G B D F vs. G7(#5): G B D# F vs. G7(b5): G B Db F

Whereas a #11 and/or b13 occur when you extend BEYOND the basic 4 note 7th chord. Neither of these notes replace the 5th and in fact, they have NOTHING to do with the 5 at all. I'll show you how by spelling out two octaves of a G Mixolydian mode:

(1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (b7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (b14) (15)
G A B C D E F G A B C D E F G

As you can see, any sort of 11, sharp or natural, is related to the 4th degree of the scale and any type of 13, natural or flat, is related to the 6th degree of the scale. I'll show you how this all comes together using the whole tone scale as my example.

If you're unfamiliar with it, begin at the root and start adding whole steps: BEWARE! This is a 6 tone scale and in a literal sense, there is no "7th" only a "#6" which should be E#. However, as we know there is no "E#" only F and the sound created against the root (G) will still "sound" like a b7 to anyone's ears, so I've replaced the numbers 6 and 13 with x's.

(1) (2) (3) (#4) (#5) (6) (b7) (8) (9) (10) (#11) (#12) (13) (b14) (15)
G A B C# D# X F G A B C# D# X F G

Compared to the Mixolydian mode above, you can see the 4 (11) and 5 have been raised.

(1) (3) (#5) (b7) (9) (#11)
If you create an arpeggio from this scale and extend it with more 3rds you get: G B D# F A C#

So as you can see, the whole tone scale gives you a G7(#5) with an available 9 and #11 to add at your discretion.

I could show where all of the rest come from but I don't want to bore you, so instead, I'd like to offer you a quick little "cheat sheet" to show all the possible combinations of 9's, #11's, 5's and 13's starting from the most "natural" to the most "altered." (if 5 isn't listed in () it's natural) I've also listed the "parent scale" in () where applicable.

G7(9)(13): G Mixolydian (C major scale)
G7(9)(#11)(13): G Lydian b7 (D Melodic Minor)
G7(9)(b13): G Mixolydian b13 (C Melodic Minor)
G7(b9)(13): G Mixolydian b9 (C Harmonic Major)
G7(sus)(b9)(13): G Dorian b2 (F Melodic Minor)
G7(#5)(9)(#11): G Whole tone scale
G7(b9)(#9)(#11)(13): G Symmetric Dominant or half-whole scale
G7(b9)(b13): G Mixolydian b9, b13 (C Harmonic Minor)
G7(b5)(b9)(#9)(b13): G Altered (Ab Melodic Minor)

A general rule of thumb is that natural 9's, #11 and 13's seek to resolve to major quality chords like:
Cmaj7, C 6/9 or C7 (all of these have a major 3rd in them)

And altered 9's, 5's and b13's seek to resolve to minor quality chords like:
C-7, C-6/9 and C-(maj7)

It is also common to use altered 9's, 5's and b13's to resolve to major quality chords; it simply creates more tension. However, it is not as pleasing to the ear or as common to have natural 9's and 13's resolve to minor quality chords (though it does happen.)

As others have said already, when it comes to guitar, there is no real difference to us as we couldn't play a 7 note voicing if we tried (except you 7-stringers out there!) So in a practical sense, your G7(#5) voicing will be exactly the same as your G7(b13) voicing and your G7(b5) voicing will be the same as your G7(#11) voicing. But now you know the theoretical difference!

I hope this gave you some insight and gives you some things to research and practice. If you have any questions about anything I've said, please feel free to PM me!

[Noah D'Innocenzo]

I apologize that the scale notes and numbers as well as the arpeggio notes and numbers don't line up. They did as I was writing the post but after posting the paragraph got reformatted and I can't seem to fix it. Let me know if you need clarification.

[Meggy]

I apologize that the scale notes and numbers as well as the arpeggio notes and numbers don't line up. They did as I was writing the post but after posting the paragraph got reformatted and I can't seem to fix it. Let me know if you need clarification.

Thank you for taking the time to post your detailed answer above - very helpful, and much appreciated by me.

[christianm77]

To the OP - bet you are sorry you asked ;-)

[edh]

@Christian, not if he really wanted to know.

[R Neil]

@Christian, not if he really wanted to know.

Reminds me of analyzing Berlioz symphonic works in college. I found sitting in a cubicle with a cassette deck/headphones and a score intensely boring. However, getting into the arguments with the prof and a couple other kids worth the pain of the boredom.

I even once got the good "Doc" to publicly state that probably Berlioz would agree with my chord progression over his. Applause from the rest of the class ...

Then the prof said "But it doesn't matter because you're both still wrong." BOOS ...

I am loving this discussion. Reread it a couple times now. Some AWESOME people here ...

Stumbling fingers still need love ...

[Meggy]

To the OP - bet you are sorry you asked ;-)

Lol - well, we may not have exact agreement among the forum experts, looking through all the responses, but it's all good stuff, and intelligently reasoned, so I think I do now have a better appreciation of the considerations involved (he said diplomatically...).