What chord scale to use on the Eb7#9 in All Blues ?

**BryBry** · 06-02-2016, 06:24 PM

This pesky chord always ruins my solo.

**christianm77** · 06-02-2016, 06:29 PM

You know that's a really good question. Why don't you ask Miles, Cannonball and Trane?

**BryBry** · 06-02-2016, 07:00 PM

No need to be sarcastic about it.
Edit: Also I listened to the recording before posting this and I hear mostly flat9s and sharp9s and the 3rds 7ths. But this isn't really enough to build a whole scale off of... That's why I asked. :/

**christianm77** · 06-02-2016, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by BryBry

No need to be sarcastic about it.

I'm not being sarcastic in the slightest.

It is a good question - I honestly don't know the answer. I've always struggled with that change.

I know the textbook answer (Eb altered), but running that scale - well it sounds awkward to me in this context.

Listening to the solos just now, what I don't hear is what would think of as the obvious choices over these chords - what they play - well it's not really scales per se.

This might not be the kind of answer you are looking for. It's what I feel to be the right answer, though. If you were my student, it's what I would advise you to do, and you can't say fairer than that. For free.

**goatrace** · 06-02-2016, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by BryBry

This pesky chord always ruins my solo.

I played that chord and it ruined my day

**christianm77** · 06-02-2016, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by BryBry

Edit: Also I listened to the recording before posting this and I hear mostly flat9s and sharp9s and the 3rds 7ths. But this isn't really enough to build a whole scale off of... That's why I asked. :/

So, thanks for the interesting question. As I say, I haven't studied this.

Not enough notes for a scale - perhaps that tells you something in itself?

If you need more info, or perhaps want to listen to a player with a more scalic approach, or just one that plays more notes, there's plenty more recordings and performances available to study for free. You don't have to get everything down - if you hear a line that's particularly hip to you, why not analyse that?

(Actually from a quick listen to the KoB recording, what they don't seem terribly interested in is the maj 3rd of the chord - it's almost minor over dominant, which is interesting. Most of them sit on the #9.)

I must say after a few years of pottering around this forum, I find the desire of people to ask people on the forum (who may or may not be able to play to a high level) about what they would do, but it's rare that there's in depth discussion and breakdown of what the masters played on actual records. I think this is a missed opportunity.

So if I were your teacher I'd say - your assignment this week is to find a line on the Eb7#9 chord that you particularly like and try and get it down. Tell me what you notice about it, and how you might mess around with this idea in different ways, or distil the essence out of it.

It's much more productive than just telling people what to do with numbers and shit.

**BryBry** · 06-02-2016, 07:32 PM

Fair enough man. I just kind of took it as a jab when you said that, but I'll take your word for it that there was no ill-intent

. I agree, running the scale would probably sound awkward. But I find it's a good starting point to know a scale for a chord. I usually just play the melody on this part, but with a scale I could embellish the melody more. Anyways I appreciate the input man~

**christianm77** · 06-02-2016, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by BryBry

Fair enough man. I just kind of took it as a jab when you said that, but I'll take your word for it that there was no ill-intent

. I agree, running the scale would probably sound awkward. But I find it's a good starting point to know a scale for a chord. I usually just play the melody on this part, but with a scale I could embellish the melody more. Anyways I appreciate the input man~

Well actually transcribing a few simple Miles lines from the KoB version and Chet Bakers version in the past 20 minutes or so, I've found a very simple scale that works really well, and sounds better to me in fact than the textbook altered scale choice.

(But that might not be the sound that appeals to you, of course.)

**mr. beaumont** · 06-02-2016, 09:26 PM

I like the good old blues scale. Might even add the M3.

**Nate Miller** · 06-02-2016, 10:02 PM

I always play some whole tone stuff there. Always

listen, you know how when we comp this one we moving thirds and/or fourth up and down like the piano players do, right? whole tone licks on the G and B strings up and down...its made for it and it sounds all spacey and modern and cool

but generally raise hell with whole tone licks there

**mr. beaumont** · 06-02-2016, 10:04 PM

I like to think about an A13 arpeggio, with a b9.

**Longways to Go** · 06-02-2016, 11:04 PM

this may sound simplistic, but since the progression moves through D7#9-Eb7#9-D7#9, can't you just kind of take whatever idea you are doing in D, slide it up a fret, and then back down?

**Hep To The Jive** · 06-02-2016, 11:28 PM

Well, that chord just stays there for one beat, do you really have the time to run a scale over it? I transcribed a fair amount of jazz solos, and one thing it taught me, forget about scales, think of chord tones. Maybe Im wrong, but scales would run themselves if you just visualize a chord and the next chord and find a line that connects them. I learned the scales long time ago, but never found thinking of them when playing a jazz tune.

**wolflen** · 06-02-2016, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I like to think about an A13 arpeggio, with a b9.

well.. Eb7#9 it is also an A13 with b5-in the bass...so G Bb Db and E diminished scales will work..Eb and A triton scales (7b5)

triads both major and minor and dom 7 with altered 5th and 9ths : for these chords-- A C Eb Gb

so with a bit of combining some of these chords/scales/arps..and their subs..you have lots of material to play with over the Eb7#9 being that the melody note is a Bb for that entire bar.. (in the key of G)

I like to think "Hendrix" for the turnaround...some of his licks & bends fit the mood of the tune..which is Miles sense of humor using ALL blues clichés ...

**Cunamara** · 06-03-2016, 01:03 AM

Whole tone scale is one option. Diminished scales are handy over dominant chords.

An interesting option on dominant chords is the major scale 1/2 step up from the root of the dominant. The accesses all the tensions and makes for convenient resolutions. So for the D#7#9 (or Eb7#9, whichever you prefer to call it) the E major scale is handy and simple. I got this out of a Robert Conti book.

**Kolbi2112** · 06-03-2016, 01:07 AM

Don't overthink it. Chord tones with some chromatic connections should do just fine.

**bako** · 06-03-2016, 05:29 AM

Scales with common tones can help unify chords that are presenting a challenge.

D altered and Eb Dorian have a 1 note differential:

D7#9 ..... D Eb F Gb(F#) Ab Bb C

Eb7#9 ..... Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db (no 3rd)

**mr. beaumont** · 06-03-2016, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by wolflen

well.. Eb7#9 it is also an A13 with b5-in the bass...so G Bb Db and E diminished scales will work..Eb and A triton scales (7b5)

triads both major and minor and dom 7 with altered 5th and 9ths : for these chords-- A C Eb Gb

so with a bit of combining some of these chords/scales/arps..and their subs..you have lots of material to play with over the Eb7#9 being that the melody note is a Bb for that entire bar.. (in the key of G)

I like to think "Hendrix" for the turnaround...some of his licks & bends fit the mood of the tune..which is Miles sense of humor using ALL blues clichés ...

I know, I should have put some "emojis" on my post...I was trying to present a classic "overthink."

**christianm77** · 06-03-2016, 08:55 AM

Ah well.

**christianm77** · 06-03-2016, 09:30 AM

I'm going to do a video. You have been warned.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-03-2016, 09:31 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I'm going to do a video. You have been warned.

Go for it, I'll do one too.

Just make sure you post in yours where the tirade ends and the music starts.

(I kid! I kid!)

**joe2758** · 06-03-2016, 09:32 AM

**christianm77** · 06-03-2016, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Go for it, I'll do one too.

Just make sure you post in yours where the tirade ends and the music starts.

(I kid! I kid!)

It'll be 100% tirade. Or maybe a spicy tirade sauce with chunks of other stuff floating around in it.

**Reg** · 06-03-2016, 09:45 AM

It's a blues right.... you start buy having some basic reference.... that usually begins with some type of analysis.

So using a blues as your basic reference and making quick analysis...

I7 IV7 and the V7 chord the bVI7 chord is part of a turn around.

Dominant7#9 chords with blues references... can become blue note spring board access chords. They can become as with modulation chords, Direct, pivots and transitional pathways for using blue notes with harmonic organization and reference.
With blues... #9 chords become Min chords or minor tonal and functional reference for creating relationships.

Blues are all about I IV relationships, call and answer .... creating a pattern with tension and release. The V chords are usually just for shaping the form of the blues.

Don't get hung up with strict note per chord or what your playing being directly a chord tone etc... Think more of motion or movement, either melodically or harmonically.... here is an old vid I made for someone on this forum, it's old but might have some useful info.