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Man, I saw that vid (Reg) some time ago. Killer!
"might have some useful info". LOL!
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06-03-2016 11:13 AM
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TBH, it's not that focussed. It's also far too long.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Awww man, I can't even listen til later...I'm sure it'll be worth it, your rants are fun (because you're usually right...or at least I agree with you. Nope, that's the same thing.)
Anywaaaayyyyyy...Miles loves the D to Eb half step and the F to F# half step in the turnarounds of his solo...could he be thinking about a little harmonic minor? He certainly does on one of those other famous tunes on this album...
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btw OP don't forget the tune's in 6/8.
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I heard this last night:
Miles Davis: 'Kind of Blue' : NPR
Click on the play button to listen.
Very perceptive, with some great quotes from Stanley Crouch, Bill Evans, Jimmy Cobb among others.
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The whole harmony there, in bar 11-12 is so freakin' cool, because the bass goes back to G...but the horns float... Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
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Yeah that's my favourite bit. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Very cool. Thanks for that. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
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In response to reg: I don't think I would want to approach this tune as a blues though... The C7/G sounds more like a Gmin6 to me. I say this because of when you hear the soloists play an E, it sounds like the 6th of Gmin6 rather than the 3rd of C7. Same with when they play a C, sounds like the 11th of Gmin than the root of C. I'm sure a lot of people play it as C7 though. I guess my point is, if it doesn't go to the 4 chord, is it really a blues? It goes to the 5 chord + the b6 but the #9 stuff makes it sound completely different imo.
Anyone agree with me here?
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I don't disagree or agree.
How would you play differently over a Gm6 or a C9/G?
How does framing it as a blues or something other influence your musical choices?
The way we organize our thinking can lead to different musical responses.
If it leads to sounds that we like, then that is a good thing.
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By agree or disagree I guess I meant as to what the original intent of the Kind Of Blue recording was.
Also, on an unrelated note, from noodling around I realized that the D7 is essentially a 5 chord in a minor key, G harmonic minor really brings out the sound of the chord. And for the Eb7 an Eb7 pentatonic works nicely, or if you want a 7 note scale Eb mixo#4. Interesting how many people (not just on the forum) I asked said an Eb7 alt scale which sounds pretty bad on that chord. The melody has a natural fifth which is why i think alt scale doesn't fit on that one. Alt scale works on the D7 though. Ofc this is all IMO.
Anyways, thanks everyone for the suggestions. I can play over those chords a million times better now, mostly just from listening to different recordings and noodling to a backing track.
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I don't think we can know this - can we?By agree or disagree I guess I meant as to what the original intent of the Kind Of Blue recording was.
It's all in one person's opinion or another, isn't it?Also, on an unrelated note, from noodling around I realized that the D7 is essentially a 5 chord in a minor key, G harmonic minor really brings out the sound of the chord. And for the Eb7 an Eb7 pentatonic works nicely, or if you want a 7 note scale Eb mixo#4. Interesting how many people (not just on the forum) I asked said an Eb7 alt scale which sounds pretty bad on that chord. The melody has a natural fifth which is why i think alt scale doesn't fit on that one. Alt scale works on the D7 though. Ofc this is all IMO.
Anyways, thanks everyone for the suggestions. I can play over those chords a million times better now, mostly just from listening to different recordings and noodling to a backing track.
If you can't be bothered to listen to my 20m+ tirade - it does seem from recordings that the major 3rd is pretty much ignored on the 7#9 chord - in other words they treat them as minor sevenths. This is similar to what Reg said?
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06-04-2016, 06:54 AM #38dortmundjazzguitar Guest
who knows? i'm an organ combo guy. don patterson sees it as Ab13 A13 and plays Ab and A major pent at that spot. good enough for me.
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yea you can basically do what ever you can... But to not think of all blues as a blue note influenced tune would be different.
I mean one of the basic melodic resolution of a blues is in the melody... B to Bb for the I and IV chord.
The other thing... which is much more relative... you all need to get over momentary or one time musical realities of playing a tune. Playing All Blues or most jazz tunes isn't about a few notes slowed down in a single moment of stopped time.
There are many approaches for playing jazz... you generally need to be able to hear and perform most of them.
Christian... sorry I tried to watch you vid... what was the point....
All blues is about as simple as it gets, you can basically use any approach and make it work, but that is one of the points... right, when you solo, the notes don't just happen.... you need to train yourself how to perform organized solos, the basic starting part is the spatial thing... The overall form and the different forms within.
Form doesn't just mean space organization.... it also means organization of harmonic, melodic, rhythmic, dynamic and articulations etc.. each concepts.
If you only have one approach... at least get that one approach organized. There are very standard concepts of physically organizing music. Just think about it for a while, it's not complicated or difficult. It's the easy part. Right you can actually slow it down and have plug and play shapes.
You could play All Blues with the related II-'s, as someone mentioned above use Ab13 and A13... if you like MM there's an access point...
All Blues uses a pedal Bass line and comping harmony part... with standard change on turn around ... set up a pattern, use it 2 times and break the pattern on the 3rd time... That form is very basic right.
The use of a Pedal or non moving bass line with harmony moving harmony part... G7 C D- C, then G-7 C D- C, so somewhat camouflaged I IV then break the patterns... The 5th on the V and VI chord reinforce the breaking of a pattern.
It's still just a blues... with the use of modal concepts...to open door for II V's .... jazz very rarely just plays Rock and Roll blues changes... the harmony is usually more complicated, there's more going on.
Generally when playing jazz... it's not a good idea to have all the notes line up perfectly with the changes.... that's generally what is called VANILLA... I'm not say bad or wrong... but usually better for background music in elevators
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I can think of plenty of blues that never goes to the IV. Originally Posted by BryBry
All Blues is definitely a blues.
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It was a bit long and rambling. The point was 'stop asking what internet idiots like us lot what scales to use and go and find out what your favourite players do.' Originally Posted by Reg
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Can you name some? I guess in the jazz world the definition of a blues is much more open. I'm not a jazzhead by any means, so I wouldn't know. When I think blues I think of muddy waters or bb king. Another one is Blues for Alice. I don't think of that tune as a blues, but to jazzers it is I believe. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Thanks.. christian and yes good point.... Although I'm not really an internet idiot... just don't have the time and I really can stand starring at a screen, or for that matter... starring at my neck while I'm performing.
Fuzzthebee... that Bebop scale was what many jazz players used in the 60's while making the transition to becoming aware of the possibilities of MM. The V7 chord of Harmonic minor with #9 added and had the natural 5th.
Would love to hear examples of how you use etc...
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what is MM?
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Ever hear John Lee Hooker? Some tunes never leave the I. Originally Posted by BryBry
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Originally Posted by BryBry
Melodic Minor.
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Just listened to Miles' solo on All Blues. The first time on the D7#9 and Eb7#9 he just plays an ascending and descending phrase using the notes D, Eb, F, Gb. Sounds great. Shows you can do it all with 4 notes. In fact on the other choruses he doesn't seem to use much more than this.
By the way it is a blues, that's why they called it 'All Blues' for f***s sake! The second chord can be treated either as Gm, or C7 with a G bass. Either way it performs the function you'd expect. (For example the B of the initial G7 chord is flattened to Bb. Just like a blues).
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No offence intended, BTW - I mean 'idiot' in a sort of playful, jokey kind of way. Everyone here is highly knowledgeable. Originally Posted by Reg
Now this is an interesting point taking about the bebop scale. I see the bop scale as a fundamentally different animal to the MM. The bop scale (the whole family of added note scales) are about outlining a 6th or 7th chord within a scale (no extensions), while the MM modes are more like an open palette of colours you can use to explore the sound of an isolated chord.
I always saw that as a fundamental change in scale use than in the scales themselves. For example 1930's jazz musicians often use the notes of the Gm6 chord with an added F# over C7, but the Gm6 (C9) is very much the emphasised sound here, not the harmonic F# over the C chord which would make it a true Lydian Dominant.
In fact, I kind of feel the the main thing to have change in the '60s is the way the scales were used rather than the scales themselves. Is this what you mean?
So in a sense I feel like the modern use of scales are actually modes, while in the older use they were used more as scales. But the modern concept of taking a chord scale and using the notes freely is pretty unique to jazz AFAIK.Last edited by christianm77; 06-05-2016 at 06:31 AM.
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Blues for Alice is still a blues if you look at it. The usual 3 chords are there (F, Bb7, C7 - the initial chord is F maj7 instead of F7). It just has loads of other chords interposed which create movement between those 3. A typical device of Charlie Parker, hence this form is often called a 'Bird blues'. Originally Posted by BryBry
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One of the most substituted and non-bluesy 12 bar blues progressions is the A section of Wave. If you look closely, all the main chords of a standard D major 12 bar are present and correct, although with different qualities then you might expect: Originally Posted by grahambop
Dmaj7 | Bbo7 | Am7 | D7 |
Gmaj7 | Gm6 | F#7 | B7 |
E7 | Bb7 A7alt | Dm7 Dm6 | Dm7 Dm6 |
(The F#7 is substituted here instead of a D chord, admittedly)
The term blues is confusing. While most 12 bar blues tunes have a quality of blues about them, as we see from the one above there is no reason why a 12 bar blues can't be have a smooth and sophisticated character, although Jobim is sure to reference the blues in the melody of the song.
All Blues is a case in point - a 12 bar form (ish) with a very non blues character - except perhaps when we hit the D7 Eb7 bit.
On the other hand standards can be extremely bluesy while not being a blues at all - Willow Weep. Georgia, Stormy Weather etc. Many early jazz tunes entitled 'blues' weren't 12 bar songs at all - Limehouse Blues is a classic example.
And as any Delta blues fan would tell you the 12 bar form was an invention of the jazz musicians anyway - a lot of the authentic old blues has an irregular form, the singer adding in extra bars as the vocal dictates. WC Handy is usually credited with the invention of the form.
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