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Originally Posted by targuit
What you are saying sounds to me like someone reading a Shakespeare soliloquy and then saying "Hmmm, I know all those words too; there's nothing special about this writing." Yes, there is. And there's something special about Wes' playing.
What is NOT special is transcribing. Wolf Marshall is among the best known transcribers of jazz guitar playing around--Kessel, Christian, Pass, Benson, Howard Roberts, many others---but almost no one cares to listen to his own playing of jazz because, well, it don't grab 'em, despite his fantastic ear, great knowledge, technical skill, and wide listening.
(I know people here who are friends of Wolf's and I don't mean to dog him. He can play, and he can reproduce all manner of material, but what he generates lacks distinction. Wes is one of the three most distinctive guitarists in the history of jazz. Charlie Christian and Django are the other two.)
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05-18-2016 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Playing them with anything like the feel and fluency Wes or Bird had, is the really, really hard part.
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
Cariba is probably my favorite. The furious chord soloing is around 8:00, but you can't really listen to only that one part. Just outstanding throughout. I've heard guitarists play with groups where they had bands which felt more like "backup" bands. Kelly and company aren't there to just make Wes sound better.
The first few times I heard this track, I literally tensed up listening to the preceding solos... Couldn't imagine holding a guitar and "waiting for my turn" after Griffin's solo. Then, Wes comes in, and you can almost "hear" the smile on his face. He's clearly enjoying...not rushed. Most aspects of that solo accent elements which are idiomatic specifically to the guitar. If we're being honest, they weren't idiomatic to guitarists at the time, but mostly just to Wes. A whole lot "try playing some of this on your sax" sounds.
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Originally Posted by targuit
So as for the chord forms, here's the shapes I use most often. I'm not going to name them, as each one can be at least 3-4 different things...I'm sure I don't use all of these in this little one chorus solo.
anyway, here they are. Not all 7ths and 9ths, but the classic 7th and 9th shapes are among them. Here they all are around the second fret for ease of typing, obviously they are moveable.
x x 2 2 3 3
x x 2 3 3 3
x x 2 4 3 5
x x 4 3 4 2
x x 2 2 2 2
x x 2 2 2 4
x x 2 3 4 4
x x 2 3 2 2
x x 2 4 3 4
x x 2 2 3 2
x x 2 3 2 3
x x 2 4 2 4
x x 2 4 4 4
x x 2 3 3 2
x x 2 3 4 2
x x 2 4 3 3
x x 2 4 2 3
Probably missed a few...Hmmm....that's a lot more than 6 or 7....but most of them are kind of based on each other...
Anyway, that's the idea.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 05-18-2016 at 10:24 AM.
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Those are all such great chord voicings! Also quick & easy on the fingers for the most part.
I love 'em & use 'em, but I wish I was more proficient at grabbing them on the fly
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^^ I think Wes liked these as well
xx5422 (A13)
xx5322 (A13b9)
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I agree with you both. As an aside beyond Full House, the Wes CDs and albums that are most striking in my possession are a series of albums that were released under the Riverside label. Those were actually my first and favorite albums by Wes. Many of them were with his brothers who were cool musicians, too. Unfortunately, because they are vinyl, I haven't listened to them for decades.
I don't take Wes down by saying that some of his music is not beyond the reach of anyone dedicated or focused enough to transcribe his music accurately. I think that is true of nearly any great guitarists. It is their ability to create their style and sound originally and their ability to deliver it consistently that has made them stars in their field. For example I could transcribe and learn a lot of Pat Martino's songs, but I don't enjoy his style playing as much now as I did in my twenties. That is not a knock on Pat, it is a question of my tastes today and preferences. Mine, no one else.
I confess that one of the greatest concert experiences I ever had was sitting five feet from George Benson (and Earl Klugh) playing in the intimate jazz club in Boston The Jazz Workshop on February 27, 1973. George inspired me in likely the same manner that Wes inspired him and other musicians.
But to comment briefly on the 'Round Midnight track, beautiful playing. But certainly one could easily transcribe the song, particularly with Transcribe or other software. Because I have created hundreds of transcriptions using Sibelius, I know that with software as an aide (to slow what already is a medium tempo ballad down in order to make the process even easier and faster) I could create a very close note-for-note transcription. And while the solo playing throughout is beautiful and great, it is also playable with practice. Simply it is not out of reach if one is willing to put in the work required. Would that be beneficial? Of course. Necessary? Not from my perspective for my situation. Would it benefit anyone else? Quite possibly. I'm certainly am not saying that anything from transcription to actually playing it is easy or that everyone could do it. But many of the players here are capable of doing so. Whether is right or a good thing musically to mime Wes' style in that fashion is another question and would be answered by anyone here individually. Not my call, though I don't think it is a good idea necessarily.
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
I love those...I think I learned those from Ed Bickert, actually, but I wouldn't be surprised if Wes used 'em too.
Jay, it's not really about transcribing. It's about having the tools and using them to improvise in real time. That's what the whole purpose of this thread was--not to play it "just like Wes."
Mind you, no harm can come from transcribing this stuff. Wes solos are little classes in "how to play jazz."
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I disagree that a decent intermediate to advanced guitarist cannot play them "...with anything like the feel and fluency Wes" had as being "the really, really hard part". Practice makes perfect if you have good technique. But who wants to hear a Wes clone? I concur that play this stuff spontaneously with the fluency of Wes is another issue.
In others the hard part is not mimicking Wes but being Wes in the first place.
And Mark, as usual you misinterpret the intention of the written word. I was joking about the transcription thing - smiley face and all. Besides, you still need the technique to play it.
"What you are saying sounds to me like someone reading a Shakespeare soliloquy and then saying "Hmmm, I know all those words too; there's nothing special about this writing." Yes, there is. And there's something special about Wes' playing." - Mark
Try reading the whole thread and what I say specifically about Wes' genius and uniqueness. With comprehension this time.Last edited by targuit; 05-18-2016 at 11:32 AM.
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Jeff - 'Jay, it's not really about transcribing. It's about having the tools and using them to improvise in real time. That's what the whole purpose of this thread was--not to play it "just like Wes."
Mind you, no harm can come from transcribing this stuff. Wes solos are little classes in "how to play jazz."'
Oh, my God! I agree with you!! But you talk about "having the tools" to improvise in real time. If you want to learn the devices that Wes used so you can appropriate the technique for yourself, you have to listen and study and transcribing may help you. As if you can just read diagrams and then stitch the music together. The "tools" are your technique number one and your creativity number two. You cannot buy them, steal them, borrow them. You have to appropriate the experience and knowledge and develop YOUR TECHNIQUE AND YOUR CREATIVITY.
When everyone says that is impossible to play what Wes played, that is wrong. If you transcribe the damn song and can play worth a damn, you can play what Wes played. BUT YOU ARE NOT WES AND NEVER WILL BE.
You guys may all want to be Wes - forget about it. Not gonna happen. Be yourself. But if you want to learn his devices, you transcribe the damn song, Mark. That is the point about transcription. Read with comprehension.Last edited by targuit; 05-18-2016 at 11:42 AM.
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Jeff - the reference to how to harmonize the melody to You Don't Know What Love Is relates to what Jamie was discussing in his video. Did you watch it?
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Thanks for this post .... I've been trying to improve my use and understanding of chord scales and this helps ....
Wish I had the time to get as good as the guy in the video when I was his age
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Originally Posted by targuit
Originally Posted by targuit
Originally Posted by targuit
JohnLast edited by John A.; 05-18-2016 at 12:06 PM.
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Originally Posted by targuit
Again, this thread was about the way Wes did stuff. The OP shows an example that's a relatively simple concept that Wes was a master of. I mentioned this same concept could be expanded slightly and used to improvise block chord solos, much like Wes Montgomery did. It was not about how me or you harmonize a tune.
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05-18-2016, 12:16 PM #66destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Those two---Jimmy Smith and Wes Montgomery---were great together. (Great apart too.) I had a guitar teacher once and we were talking about jazz soloing and he said that Jimmy Smith was the best, period. Coming from a guitarist, that was surprising. But Jimmy was an incredible soloist. And Wes is great here too.
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I like "the further adventures" a lot more than the "dynamic duo" album. Wish they would have made more like that together.
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And I think Joey DeFrancesco is a modern day equivalent of Jimmy Smith. Joey DeF. is outstanding as an accompanist and as a lead player. Any band with him in it is going to be very good to excellent.
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The one thing I don't like a bout the OP video is.. he totally blew my cover. That one technique he presents accounts for, oh, maybe 75% of my playing... now I am outed as a one-trick pony.
I hate the internet.
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Thanks for this thread I have been playing around with the OP idea and the variations suggested since - great stuff.
Joey DeFrancesco - love his playing !!!!
Will
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Its all good Lawson - no one here will let anyone else know your secret )
Will
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Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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I came across this PDF from Shawn Purcell on this topic:
http://www.jazzguitarlife.com/Wes%20...Techniques.pdf
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Originally Posted by Larry Feldman
Gibson Les Paul '50s Tribute
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