Wes Montgomery scale harmonisation

[MarkRhodes]

If anyone is willing to front me the cost of Transcribe, I will gladly prepare you a transcription.

No one wants a transcription. (For those who do, transcriptions of Wes abound.) Lots of people transcribe things they can't actually play. What people love about Wes is the way he played, not the intellectual content of his transcriptions.

What you are saying sounds to me like someone reading a Shakespeare soliloquy and then saying "Hmmm, I know all those words too; there's nothing special about this writing." Yes, there is. And there's something special about Wes' playing.

What is NOT special is transcribing. Wolf Marshall is among the best known transcribers of jazz guitar playing around--Kessel, Christian, Pass, Benson, Howard Roberts, many others---but almost no one cares to listen to his own playing of jazz because, well, it don't grab 'em, despite his fantastic ear, great knowledge, technical skill, and wide listening.

(I know people here who are friends of Wolf's and I don't mean to dog him. He can play, and he can reproduce all manner of material, but what he generates lacks distinction. Wes is one of the three most distinctive guitarists in the history of jazz. Charlie Christian and Django are the other two.)

[grahambop]

No one wants a transcription. (For those who do, transcriptions of Wes abound.) Lots of people transcribe things they can't actually play. What people love about Wes is the way he played, not the intellectual content of his transcriptions.

What you are saying sounds to me like someone reading a Shakespeare soliloquy and then saying "Hmmm, I know all those words too; there's nothing special about this writing." Yes, there is. And there's something special about Wes' playing.

What is NOT special is transcribing. Wolf Marshall is among the best known transcribers of jazz guitar playing around--Kessel, Christian, Pass, Benson, Howard Roberts, many others---but almost no one cares to listen to his own playing of jazz because, well, it don't grab 'em, despite his fantastic ear, great knowledge, technical skill, and wide listening.

(I know people here who are friends of Wolf's and I don't mean to dog him. He can play, and he can reproduce all manner of material, but what he generates lacks distinction. Wes is one of the three most distinctive guitarists in the history of jazz. Charlie Christian and Django are the other two.)

Absolutely. With practice, figuring out the notes is nothing. I used to work out Wes solos by ear before there was such a thing as slowdown software. Even Charlie Parker solos, except for those really fast double-time passages.

Playing them with anything like the feel and fluency Wes or Bird had, is the really, really hard part.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Maybe the idea here is that Wes didn't play something there that nobody else could play; he played something that nobody else actually did play, or would have played. Like the octaves. Once Wes broke out the octave as a genuine solo technique, others began to use them more extensively. They'd always been there, but more like a flourish or ornament. Wes used them as an actual melodic style. Turns out they weren't as "impossible" as many thought (though still incredibly challenging, of course) but later players imitated it. Players with no sense of the history of the instrument might listen to Wes' octaves and just say "Dude, I have this pedal that will do that..."

So the chordal passage there, looking back, might not seem on the surface to be cosmic or historic; but that Wes did that kind of thing on the fly, all the time, at pretty much the same level of excellence and spontaneity, is indeed mind-blowing. We always need to remember that this is improvisation. The technique and the sophistication of the lines are just one part; that he made this up and threw it in there on the fly, that's amazing.

I also would challenge any of us to try to copy that little section perfectly. Get the voicings, the articulation, the phrasing, the mesh with the rhythm section... might turn out to be much more "cosmic" than would appear.

So I think chord-melody improvisation is pretty much high-zen stuff. I've tried it, and proven that I can reach new levels of lameness with it.

Yeah, that's the real thing. Playing it is one thing. Improvising freely with chord forms is another. Having simplified forms which you can actually improvise with and using them on-the-fly is just an entirely different thing from working up a full chord-solo on a ballad (which Wes did as well).

Cariba is probably my favorite. The furious chord soloing is around 8:00, but you can't really listen to only that one part. Just outstanding throughout. I've heard guitarists play with groups where they had bands which felt more like "backup" bands. Kelly and company aren't there to just make Wes sound better.

The first few times I heard this track, I literally tensed up listening to the preceding solos... Couldn't imagine holding a guitar and "waiting for my turn" after Griffin's solo. Then, Wes comes in, and you can almost "hear" the smile on his face. He's clearly enjoying...not rushed. Most aspects of that solo accent elements which are idiomatic specifically to the guitar. If we're being honest, they weren't idiomatic to guitarists at the time, but mostly just to Wes. A whole lot "try playing some of this on your sax" sounds.

[mr. beaumont]

Perhaps Jeff would like to explain if indeed he was not playing sevenths and ninth chords in that manner, just what secret sauce he was using.

So as for the chord forms, here's the shapes I use most often. I'm not going to name them, as each one can be at least 3-4 different things...I'm sure I don't use all of these in this little one chorus solo.

anyway, here they are. Not all 7ths and 9ths, but the classic 7th and 9th shapes are among them. Here they all are around the second fret for ease of typing, obviously they are moveable.

x x 2 2 3 3

x x 2 3 3 3

x x 2 4 3 5

x x 4 3 4 2

x x 2 2 2 2

x x 2 2 2 4

x x 2 3 4 4

x x 2 3 2 2

x x 2 4 3 4

x x 2 2 3 2

x x 2 3 2 3

x x 2 4 2 4

x x 2 4 4 4

x x 2 3 3 2

x x 2 3 4 2

x x 2 4 3 3

x x 2 4 2 3


Probably missed a few...Hmmm....that's a lot more than 6 or 7....but most of them are kind of based on each other...

Anyway, that's the idea.

[Longways to Go]

Those are all such great chord voicings! Also quick & easy on the fingers for the most part.
I love 'em & use 'em, but I wish I was more proficient at grabbing them on the fly

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

^^ I think Wes liked these as well

xx5422 (A13)
xx5322 (A13b9)

[targuit]

I agree with you both. As an aside beyond Full House, the Wes CDs and albums that are most striking in my possession are a series of albums that were released under the Riverside label. Those were actually my first and favorite albums by Wes. Many of them were with his brothers who were cool musicians, too. Unfortunately, because they are vinyl, I haven't listened to them for decades.

I don't take Wes down by saying that some of his music is not beyond the reach of anyone dedicated or focused enough to transcribe his music accurately. I think that is true of nearly any great guitarists. It is their ability to create their style and sound originally and their ability to deliver it consistently that has made them stars in their field. For example I could transcribe and learn a lot of Pat Martino's songs, but I don't enjoy his style playing as much now as I did in my twenties. That is not a knock on Pat, it is a question of my tastes today and preferences. Mine, no one else.

I confess that one of the greatest concert experiences I ever had was sitting five feet from George Benson (and Earl Klugh) playing in the intimate jazz club in Boston The Jazz Workshop on February 27, 1973. George inspired me in likely the same manner that Wes inspired him and other musicians.

But to comment briefly on the 'Round Midnight track, beautiful playing. But certainly one could easily transcribe the song, particularly with Transcribe or other software. Because I have created hundreds of transcriptions using Sibelius, I know that with software as an aide (to slow what already is a medium tempo ballad down in order to make the process even easier and faster) I could create a very close note-for-note transcription. And while the solo playing throughout is beautiful and great, it is also playable with practice. Simply it is not out of reach if one is willing to put in the work required. Would that be beneficial? Of course. Necessary? Not from my perspective for my situation. Would it benefit anyone else? Quite possibly. I'm certainly am not saying that anything from transcription to actually playing it is easy or that everyone could do it. But many of the players here are capable of doing so. Whether is right or a good thing musically to mime Wes' style in that fashion is another question and would be answered by anyone here individually. Not my call, though I don't think it is a good idea necessarily.

[mr. beaumont]

^^ I think Wes liked these as well

xx5422 (A13)
xx5322 (A13b9)

I love those...I think I learned those from Ed Bickert, actually, but I wouldn't be surprised if Wes used 'em too.


Jay, it's not really about transcribing. It's about having the tools and using them to improvise in real time. That's what the whole purpose of this thread was--not to play it "just like Wes."

Mind you, no harm can come from transcribing this stuff. Wes solos are little classes in "how to play jazz."

[targuit]

I disagree that a decent intermediate to advanced guitarist cannot play them "...with anything like the feel and fluency Wes" had as being "the really, really hard part". Practice makes perfect if you have good technique. But who wants to hear a Wes clone? I concur that play this stuff spontaneously with the fluency of Wes is another issue.

In others the hard part is not mimicking Wes but being Wes in the first place.

And Mark, as usual you misinterpret the intention of the written word. I was joking about the transcription thing - smiley face and all. Besides, you still need the technique to play it.

"What you are saying sounds to me like someone reading a Shakespeare soliloquy and then saying "Hmmm, I know all those words too; there's nothing special about this writing." Yes, there is. And there's something special about Wes' playing." - Mark

Try reading the whole thread and what I say specifically about Wes' genius and uniqueness. With comprehension this time.

[targuit]

Jeff - 'Jay, it's not really about transcribing. It's about having the tools and using them to improvise in real time. That's what the whole purpose of this thread was--not to play it "just like Wes."

Mind you, no harm can come from transcribing this stuff. Wes solos are little classes in "how to play jazz."'

Oh, my God! I agree with you!! But you talk about "having the tools" to improvise in real time. If you want to learn the devices that Wes used so you can appropriate the technique for yourself, you have to listen and study and transcribing may help you. As if you can just read diagrams and then stitch the music together. The "tools" are your technique number one and your creativity number two. You cannot buy them, steal them, borrow them. You have to appropriate the experience and knowledge and develop YOUR TECHNIQUE AND YOUR CREATIVITY.

When everyone says that is impossible to play what Wes played, that is wrong. If you transcribe the damn song and can play worth a damn, you can play what Wes played. BUT YOU ARE NOT WES AND NEVER WILL BE.

You guys may all want to be Wes - forget about it. Not gonna happen. Be yourself. But if you want to learn his devices, you transcribe the damn song, Mark. That is the point about transcription. Read with comprehension.

[targuit]

Jeff - the reference to how to harmonize the melody to You Don't Know What Love Is relates to what Jamie was discussing in his video. Did you watch it?

[joe2758]

[Bluedawg]

Thanks for this post .... I've been trying to improve my use and understanding of chord scales and this helps ....

Wish I had the time to get as good as the guy in the video when I was his age

[John A.]

Just for the record, that recording of the C blues tune was not the first time Wes ever played it. And I was referring more to the actual musical content. It is a straight ahead blues. It follows his formula - single note, then octaves, then chord forms. The forms are not complex.

Having said that - and please feel free to dispute the accuracy of the above statement - I did not say it was not good playing. I said that the style and chords as played were not beyond the capacity of many good players including those here on the forum.

Again, can pretty much anybody play the voicings Wes used? Sure. These are not three-strings-three-frets-one-finger finger-twisters that, say, Ted Greene or Johnny Smith could do (amazingly) at will. But the complete Wes aesthetic and freedom of soloing with this toolkit is beyond the capacity of most players. This more than anything tells you that a great solo has many elements to it.

And Jeff just proved my point quite nicely. The chords are essentially Sevenths and Ninths that run up and down the fret board. In effect what Wes does is to build up the octave forms by adding in a couple of notes such as the third, seventh, and or ninth to his octave stylizations. That is why there is so much movement up and down the fret board. Wes used to complain that playing octaves gave him headaches. I did not say it is easy or does not require skill. But it is essentially a blues form - this was not Charlie Parker on dope playing at 200 bpm. Certainly not a 'religious experience'.

There are also diminished "shapes" (for lack of a better term) in there, and of course, these are "just" blues stylizations, because (assuming we're talking about Unit 7), it's a blues tune, and that's what he was going for. The point of the OP, and the really cool thing about Wes's concept is that he came up with a soloing and comping system based on using a small number of voicings/shapes as subs or inversions for all kinds of chord functions; despite the simplicity and repetition of this, it yielded an amazing level of creativity and variety. I'm not at all clear on what your comment about tempo was, but there are many examples of Wes playing harmonically involved tunes at high tempos (though he mostly did only single string and octaves on the really fast stuff). My experience with trying to figure out Wes solos is generally "wow, this is way faster than I thought it was," not "gee, Bird played a lot faster."

The solo phrases were not 'other worldly', octaves likewise, and the chords were stylishly executed by not unplayable. And this tune Wes had doubtlessly played umpteen times before. But played with his panache that is why he is in the history books.

I have no idea what you mean by "other worldly" or what point you're trying to make here, except that you seem to be arguing against a straw man re: Wes-style block chords per se being incomprehensibly difficult. I don't think that's what anyone is saying on this thread. My takeaway is block chord=easy multiple choruses of really cool sounding chord solos=dang hard.

John

[mr. beaumont]

Jeff - the reference to how to harmonize the melody to You Don't Know What Love Is relates to what Jamie was discussing in his video. Did you watch it?

I did.

Again, this thread was about the way Wes did stuff. The OP shows an example that's a relatively simple concept that Wes was a master of. I mentioned this same concept could be expanded slightly and used to improvise block chord solos, much like Wes Montgomery did. It was not about how me or you harmonize a tune.

[destinytot]

I did.

Again, this thread was about the way Wes did stuff. The OP shows an example that's a relatively simple concept that Wes was a master of. I mentioned this same concept could be expanded slightly and used to improvise block chord solos, much like Wes Montgomery did. It was not about how me or you harmonize a tune.

Love what he did - and love to ponder (like the late eponymous Jimmy), "What would Uncle Wes do today?"

[MarkRhodes]

Those two---Jimmy Smith and Wes Montgomery---were great together. (Great apart too.) I had a guitar teacher once and we were talking about jazz soloing and he said that Jimmy Smith was the best, period. Coming from a guitarist, that was surprising. But Jimmy was an incredible soloist. And Wes is great here too.

[mr. beaumont]

I like "the further adventures" a lot more than the "dynamic duo" album. Wish they would have made more like that together.

[goldenwave77]

And I think Joey DeFrancesco is a modern day equivalent of Jimmy Smith. Joey DeF. is outstanding as an accompanist and as a lead player. Any band with him in it is going to be very good to excellent.

[lawson-stone]

The one thing I don't like a bout the OP video is.. he totally blew my cover. That one technique he presents accounts for, oh, maybe 75% of my playing... now I am outed as a one-trick pony.

I hate the internet.

[WillMbCdn5]

Thanks for this thread I have been playing around with the OP idea and the variations suggested since - great stuff.

Joey DeFrancesco - love his playing !!!!

Will

[WillMbCdn5]

Its all good Lawson - no one here will let anyone else know your secret )

Will

[Cunamara]

You're a theologian, for reals? Then we simply must have a bitter argument in the chit chat forum sometime. In the meanwhile, I wouldn't mind a Church of Wes. Recall that not all religions are theistic. Some revolve around enlightenment!

Why not? There is a Church of John Coltrane... specifically the St. John Will-I-Am Coltrane African Orthodox Church in San Francisco. I might roll up for a service at The Church of the Holy Octivation celebrating Wes. BTW I am not making a mockery here. Maybe a bit of hyperbole, there, but Wes is part of the trinity of jazz guitar: Django, Charlie and Wes. The rest of us are shirt-tail relations. Those guys defined the instrument.

[Larry Feldman]

I came across this PDF from Shawn Purcell on this topic:

http://www.jazzguitarlife.com/Wes%20...Techniques.pdf

[MarkRhodes]

I came across this PDF from Shawn Purcell on this topic:

http://www.jazzguitarlife.com/Wes%20...Techniques.pdf

Thanks for that. I'll print it tomorrow and put it on the music stand and see where it takes me.