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That's simple enough (in theory at least)
Thx Joe and Matt!
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05-17-2016 10:12 AM
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Remember, there's nothing inherently magical about drop 2 voicings on guitar...other than that they're, y'know...actually playable
Jay, I still think we're not on the same page. Do you dig what I'm talking about? Soloing with block chords, not playing solo guitar or "chord melody" as folks call it.
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Are you intending the process of phrasing entirely with chords? As in playing a series of diminished chords in a measure? Could you be more specific as to what you intend?
Perhaps you could make reference to Wes' Full House recording of I've Grown Accustomed to her Face by way of illustration. What else is Wes doing when he plays solo guitar? Knitting?
Or if that is not what you mean, could you cite a concrete example? Soloing with chords....I thought the song above was a good example of that. Of course, one can solo in a group context as well using other than single notes. Is that what you mean? People often note that Wes would start his solos with single notes and gradually build up from that to octaves and finally to chords, but I'm not sure that is fundamentally "different" than playing chords which logically incorporate the melody in the voicing.Last edited by targuit; 05-17-2016 at 12:07 PM.
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I'm talking about improvising a solo with block chords.
Check from about 4:55
I'm honestly not sure if you really don't know what we're talking about in this thread or if you're having a laugh.
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As a theologian, that track is both good news and bad news for me.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Good News: nobody can listen to that and NOT believe that there is indeed a God.
Bad News (for most religions): God is Wes Montgomery
My institution is not going to be happy to hear about a little edit in our school's statement of faith that I plan to propose...
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Well, that story concerned Wes's early career, so if that story is in fact true, he could have picked it up later anyway... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Anyway, being from a musical family it seems likely he could have got info when he needed it...
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05-17-2016, 01:31 PM #32destinytot GuestNice to see a Jamaican on piano in God's line-up. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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You're a theologian, for reals? Then we simply must have a bitter argument in the chit chat forum sometime. In the meanwhile, I wouldn't mind a Church of Wes. Recall that not all religions are theistic. Some revolve around enlightenment! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Jeff - I listened to that Half Note recording. Nice but the part you were referring to from roughly 4:05 on was exactly what I described. The progression of the solo from single notes to octaves to chordal. Wes adopted that process over and over. Octaves kick in around 4:07 or so. Then chordal riffing - mostly ninth chords and seventh chords with appropriate minor sevenths The chordal section kicks in at around 4:56 or so. This is not something original to my perception - it is well know
In truth, much as we like to venerate Wes, the chordal section was not something otherworldly by any means. It was good, rhythmically strong, but not beyond the capabilities of most of us by any means. Still, it was Wes. And he had that 'je ne sais quoi' factor that made him great. Still and all, my jaw is by no means on the floor as regards his use of chordal voicings as the culmination of his solo.
Sorry. I certainly am not messing with you, as I defined that single note - octave - chordal progression in terms of his solo from the beginning.Last edited by targuit; 05-17-2016 at 02:56 PM.
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Seriously? Care to demonstrate? Originally Posted by targuit
John
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Oh dear, I've stepped in it again.
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Here, since I was the a$$hole who made this into a challenge, here I am on Unit 7. It's not the same as playing chord melody. If you dig, I'll answer any questions, if it sucks, feel free to ignore me.
https://m.facebook.com/groups/558429...55598084537017
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Damn! Nice playing, Jeff!
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Nice! Enjoyed that. For what it's worth, I thought what you were saying was clear from the beginning. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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That was great. Clearly, some folks around here can play Wes-isms and I didn't mean to suggest none can. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
But I kind of chafed at targuit'a comment because it seemed to be saying Wes's chord playing is not a big deal, and it really is a big deal. Ok, so the voicings themselves are not exotically, amazingly challenging, but the way he used them as the basis for a system that yielded really creative solos is amazing, and the fluency with which he wielded that system is pretty jaw dropping IMO. That totality is very, very hard.
Lots of people can approximate it, or expropriate bits of it within their approaches. But the number of people who can harmonize melody lines as energetically and creatively as Wes did is very small.
John
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Having occasionally attempted to play a few bits of a Wes chord solo, I totally agree. The method can be learned. But the speed and ability he had doing it 'on the fly' is wondrous. Originally Posted by John A.
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Just for the record, that recording of the C blues tune was not the first time Wes ever played it. And I was referring more to the actual musical content. It is a straight ahead blues. It follows his formula - single note, then octaves, then chord forms. The forms are not complex.
Having said that - and please feel free to dispute the accuracy of the above statement - I did not say it was not good playing. I said that the style and chords as played were not beyond the capacity of many good players including those here on the forum.
And Jeff just proved my point quite nicely. The chords are essentially Sevenths and Ninths that run up and down the fret board. In effect what Wes does is to build up the octave forms by adding in a couple of notes such as the third, seventh, and or ninth to his octave stylizations. That is why there is so much movement up and down the fret board. Wes used to complain that playing octaves gave him headaches. I did not say it is easy or does not require skill. But it is essentially a blues form - this was not Charlie Parker on dope playing at 200 bpm. Certainly not a 'religious experience'.
The solo phrases were not 'other worldly', octaves likewise, and the chords were stylishly executed by not unplayable. And this tune Wes had doubtlessly played umpteen times before. But played with his panache that is why he is in the history books.
If anyone is willing to front me the cost of Transcribe, I will gladly prepare you a transcription. Oh, and I know they give you a thirty day trial. But I am not a cheap date.
Last edited by targuit; 05-18-2016 at 05:01 AM.
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05-18-2016, 04:50 AM #44destinytot Guest
I think there is a point at which even well-intentioned criteria - such as 'speed', 'creativity' (?) - do more harm than good.
Because I think they are, at best, condescending.
When it comes to Uncle Wes, I think that adulation and total awe are due. (Kissing the ring optional.)
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Hi, Mike! I certainly am not being condescending to anyone intentionally. Just describing what I hear and see.
Anyway I have no intention of pursuing the argument beyond what I said. Jeff just demonstrated my point quite nicely. Hope he did not strip away any aura from Wes.
And Mark, if you study Jeff's video, you will see that what I described about running seventh and ninth chords up and down the fret board is exactly correct. No misunderstanding.
Perhaps Jeff would like to explain if indeed he was not playing sevenths and ninth chords in that manner, just what secret sauce he was using.Last edited by targuit; 05-18-2016 at 05:12 AM.
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05-18-2016, 06:16 AM #46destinytot Guest
Hi Jay! Not aimed at any individual.
Imho, criteria cut both ways; they can be used to empower - 'what gets measured gets done' - or enslave.
In the wrong hands, formalised criterion-referencing becomes a hustler's charter; organised scams and rackets thrive. (Anecdotes and opinions about scams in Education, Culture and the Arts come to mind.)
For me, the 'jazz' guitar Greats themselves have transcended the scope of that hustle. But, in my view, the hustle is fuelled and proliferates because of well-intended observations from those who are not themselves participants.
I suggest two simple solutions, the first of which is to worship at Lawson's church. The other comes in the form of a model response to coercive control by criteria.
When Woody's character - instead of selling out - says, "I don't recognise the right of this committee to ask me these kind (sic) of questions", he isn't speaking with - er - His Master's Voice:
A third suggestion might be to get hold of Roni Ben Hur's DVD, put it next to Alan Kingstone's book - and get playing.Last edited by destinytot; 05-18-2016 at 06:29 AM.
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To be quite honest with you, Mike, I don't feel compelled to buy DVD of the "how to" variety much anymore. Nor books on jazz theory. I would like more CDs from some artists, but can't afford them anymore. I need to find a job to help support my son through college this fall. That is my only focus these days. That and controlling the rage at the farce of our faux electoral system in our faux democracy. LOL. They sure dress up fascism in some pretty artsy fartsy ways these days.
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I wouldn't put it that way. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I love that section too. Maybe the idea here is that Wes didn't play something there that nobody else could play; he played something that nobody else actually did play, or would have played. Like the octaves. Once Wes broke out the octave as a genuine solo technique, others began to use them more extensively. They'd always been there, but more like a flourish or ornament. Wes used them as an actual melodic style. Turns out they weren't as "impossible" as many thought (though still incredibly challenging, of course) but later players imitated it. Players with no sense of the history of the instrument might listen to Wes' octaves and just say "Dude, I have this pedal that will do that..."
So the chordal passage there, looking back, might not seem on the surface to be cosmic or historic; but that Wes did that kind of thing on the fly, all the time, at pretty much the same level of excellence and spontaneity, is indeed mind-blowing. We always need to remember that this is improvisation. The technique and the sophistication of the lines are just one part; that he made this up and threw it in there on the fly, that's amazing.
I also would challenge any of us to try to copy that little section perfectly. Get the voicings, the articulation, the phrasing, the mesh with the rhythm section... might turn out to be much more "cosmic" than would appear.
So I think chord-melody improvisation is pretty much high-zen stuff. I've tried it, and proven that I can reach new levels of lameness with it.
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Well, first of all thanks for all the nice compliments on my little clip.
I hope my personal point--and I'm pretty sure the point of this thread all along--was to show that it IS a relatively simple concept...it's about what you do with it.
I balked originally when Jay brought up the way he'd harmonize a melody like "You Don't Know What Love Is." I see nothing wrong with his approach--but that's not what we were talking about here.
Wes' chordal bit on Unit 7 is definitely not his most advanced example...it's just one of many. Check this one out (which I'm hoping everyone here has heard)
Skip to 3:30 or so if you don't like fantastic jazz guitar playing on one of the best tunes ever written
Last edited by mr. beaumont; 05-18-2016 at 09:22 AM.
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I do think that Wes' 'Unit 7' solo is a sort of perfection of his art, I mean it has everything, single lines, octaves, chords, played with such invention and ease, and they just flow completely naturally from one phrase to the next. And the rhythmic patterns he incorporates in the chord solo are great.
Round Midnight is also perfect in its way, showing what he could do with a ballad. It's so atmospheric.Last edited by grahambop; 05-18-2016 at 09:32 AM.
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