Reimagining the Fretboard: A New Approach to Harmonic Development

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Congrats Jordan ,for you Top Down chord theory!

The Steve Khan book is my bedroom book since years !

As I have short hands,I choiced to replace triads by quartal triads for certain chords.

ie,page 14 of your thesis, bar 8,for E7 #9 b13, I replace E (5) by D (b7). Bar 10,Dm7, A(5) by G (11).
Page 15,bar 2, A7b13#9, A(T) by G (b7). Bar 3, Dm7, A(5) by G(11);

As for Cm11 (bar4) and Dm119 (bar7), I replace 9 by b3,for my ears m11 sounds more "open", like this.

As for Dyads,you got fantastic ideas, and so plenty room!

NB
I found some misprints in your text:
Page 14,bar 1, Gm 11 13 and not 9 13 (idem page 15,bar 1)
Page 14, bar 5 and for all the others (Bb 9+ 11+ 13) in the following pages,I should write Bb maj and not Bbmaj7,cause you don't have a 7 in the chord.

cheers
HB

[destinytot]

Jordan, I find this approach totally compelling and I've resolved to go deep into this. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing it. I applaud you.

[jordanklemons]

Congrats Jordan ,for you Top Down chord theory!

The Steve Khan book is my bedroom book since years !

As I have short hands,I choiced to replace triads by quartal triads for certain chords.

ie,page 14 of your thesis, bar 8,for E7 #9 b13, I replace E (5) by D (b7). Bar 10,Dm7, A(5) by G (11).
Page 15,bar 2, A7b13#9, A(T) by G (b7). Bar 3, Dm7, A(5) by G(11);

As for Cm11 (bar4) and Dm119 (bar7), I replace 9 by b3,for my ears m11 sounds more "open", like this.

As for Dyads,you got fantastic ideas, and so plenty room!

NB
I found some misprints in your text:
Page 14,bar 1, Gm 11 13 and not 9 13 (idem page 15,bar 1)
Page 14, bar 5 and for all the others (Bb 9+ 11+ 13) in the following pages,I should write Bb maj and not Bbmaj7,cause you don't have a 7 in the chord.

cheers
HB

Thanks HB! Spot on about the G-13(11) being misnamed. Not sure how that slipped by me. Gotta go back into Sibelius and change all those now. Ugh.

As for the BbMaj13#11(9)...

Technically, it is a Maj7 with the 13, #11, and 9 added via the triad. In the original piano voicing from which I derived all of the variations, it had the Maj7. And if you were to add a 5th note to the quadrad, it with be the A note, adding in the major 7th. It's sort of implied. So you are right in that the major 7th.

So aside from calling it a BbMaj13#11,9... the only other option I can think of to name it would be a Bb6,9(#11)... but then it becomes a 6 chord and has a whole different set of behaviors to it. So I would stick with thinking of it as a 13 (with the 7th implied) rather than a 6. And I can't call it a Bb13#11,9 because then it implies a b7. So a BbMaj13#11,9 seems like the best name, to me. Especially given that the major 7th was in the original chord, and is implied as part of the tonality. And would be 'officially' added in if we allowed for one more tension note.

[jordanklemons]

Jordan, I find this approach totally compelling and I've resolved to go deep into this. Thank you SO MUCH for sharing it. I applaud you.

Thanks DT. Glad you enjoyed it. Please stay in touch as you go deeper in and let me (us) know how it's going. Either here in this thread or in a pm. Look forward to hearing from you about it.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

a BbMaj13#11,9 seems like the best name, to me

yes Jordan,you're absolute right.And in different places of your text, it's correctly written.

But in your Sibelius notation,above the several notes of the chords, I read the Bb with a little triangle; for me this little triangle does imply a Bb maj7,not present in the chord.

As this work will be an official work, I think it would be better to change it for a BbMaj13#11,9,without the little triangle
cheers
HB

[jordanklemons]

yes Jordan,you're absolute right.And in different places of your text, it's correctly written.

But in your Sibelius notation,above the several notes of the chords, I read the Bb with a little triangle; for me this little triangle does imply a Bb maj7,not present in the chord.

As this work will be an official work, I think it would be better to change it for a BbMaj13#11,9,without the little triangle
cheers
HB

Anyone else want to chime in on this topic? I'm curious what other people think. Based on my experience, and how my teachers organized things, the word 'Maj' was used to simply mean 1-natural3-5 when put next to a root note (in other words, just a simple major triad). And even then, it's unnecessary as the root note alone implies that unless otherwise notated.

But when used with extensions and numbers, like a 9, it implied the major 7th with the 9 added. So a BbMaj9 would be a Bb chord with a major 7th and a 9. So the word 'Maj' and the triangle are interchangeable when used in that context.

Anyone else out there learn the same thing? Something different? Sibelius only let's me use the words major and minor OR the little triangle and minus sign (-). It's one or the other. In fact, I have it set to the the triangle and the minus sign because I think it looks cleaner, so when I type in 'maj' it defaults it to the little triangle with no option otherwise. Unless I go into the settings and tell it to turn off the triangle and minus sign and only use maj and min. The only reason I didn't use the little triangle when typing the chord out in sentences is because I didn't know how to create that character on my keyboard. Anyone know how to?

Either way, I think they would both work as the tonality implies the existence of the major 7th note, even if it's not being played in the chord, anyone blowing over the changes would know it was part of the tonality. Just like there's no 5th in the chord voicings, but I'm not writing 'omit5'. Seems like sketchy territory to name it only based on the exact notes used to voice the harmony out, as it would get really hairy when it gets into the 3-note structures and dyads. But I am still curious how some of you guys would name that.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Don't care about that,Jordan.

I learned ,years ago, in the Brussels Jazz school this convention about {little triangle=Maj7},with a 7th implied in the chord.
Maybe it's a Belgian (or European) convention ?
cheers
HB

[gggomez]

Wow Jordan that guitar you made sounds wonderful. Goes with your playing, I hope you are still playing it in 30 years time and never suffer gas. You are on the yellow brick road fella.

[jordanklemons]

Don't care about that,Jordan.

Ok. I wasn't asking for your sake HB. I was asking out of my own curiosity.

I learned ,years ago, in the Brussels Jazz school this convention about {little triangle=Maj7},with a 7th implied in the chord.
Maybe it's a Belgian (or European) convention ?
cheers
HB

I agree. I don't believe it's a European convention.

[jordanklemons]

Wow Jordan that guitar you made sounds wonderful. Goes with your playing, I hope you are still playing it in 30 years time and never suffer gas. You are on the yellow brick road fella.

Thanks Triple G. I hope she's still working with me in 30 years too!

[scottkerr]

Dont see the link to the pdf but would be very interested.

[jordanklemons]

Dont see the link to the pdf but would be very interested.

Hey Scott. You may want to hit up an administrator, as I'm no expert.

I can tell you the two times I've noticed that the pdf download link doesn't show. If I check the forum without being logged in, I don't think it shows. And also, I think it only shows on the first page of the thread. It repeats the post at the top of all the subsequent pages, but I don't believe you'll find the download link unless you go back to the very beginning of the thread. Page 1.

If neither of those two issues apply or fix the problem, I'd recommend hitting up an admin. They've always been great about helping me with issues in the past.

Thanks for showing such an interest! I'm really quite moved to see just how many people have downloaded this thing.

[scottkerr]

I got it, I was not using the correct browser. Thank you so much for your work, especially the first paragraph:

The horizontal and vertical lines formed by the strings and frets offer no
immediate visual guidance to guitar players the way the white and black keys do for pianists.
This forces guitar players to think differently from piano players, and to rely on a more
geometric-based approach to learning their instrument. Chords and scales are learned as
shapes. This makes it very difficult for guitarists to understand the relationships between the
chords they are playing and the melodies they are meant to harmonize.

Yup, really often wish I studied Piano all these years...

[jordanklemons]

Yeah... there are downsides to the guitar. But I personally feel that there are pros and cons to each instrument. Guitar has some GREAT benefits, imo. But the last few years, I've been putting in more time at the piano, and I've found it very helpful in so many ways. The big one is that it just slows me down and forces me to really hear what I'm playing. Too easy not to hear what I'm playing on guitar because I have the muscle memory and technique to just 'play'... but at the piano I have to really slow down and hear how each note is affecting the overall sound.

Which when I start thinking that way on guitar... I like what happens.

[Robertkoa]

True..but there is still quite a bit of virgin territory on Guitar Voicings...

Want to see the ultimate Top Down
13 b5 Chord with 9th and 7th ?
It's so "inside "sounding it could be used in a Rolling Stones or even Country Song... but it's a super versatile pivot or passing chord in a "Georgia On My Mind "or Expanded Blues or Prog R&B ( where I am going )setting...it's top voices are a Major Triad and Minor Triad overlapping on the top 4 strings...

[Robertkoa]

True..but there is still quite a bit of virgin or mostly unused territory on Guitar Voicings...

[jordanklemons]

Prog R&B ( where I am going )

Wow I would love to hear what prog r&b sounds like. Got anything online Robert?

Want to see the ultimate Top Down
13 b5 Chord with 9th and 7th ?

...

it's top voices are a Major Triad and Minor Triad overlapping on the top 4 strings...

I love the 13#11(9) chord. Fantastic voicing to play with using top-down.

Can you spell out how you voice it? I have talked with a couple of pianists about the idea of superimposing two different triads BOTH over a basic, root chord structure. That's something piano players with their two hands and sustain pedal are a little more capable of pulling off... but I'd like to mess with it at some point. But I personally have years worth of work just to get all the single triad stuff down.

I use the major triad built from the 2. And then depending on the situation, I fill in X number of lower structure notes underneath it, including the dominant 7. But I don't see the minor triad you're talking about. How do you voice yours?

[gggomez]

Ok. I wasn't asking for your sake HB. I was asking out of my own curiosity.


I agree. I don't believe it's a European convention.

Hw

Wow Jordan that guitar you made sounds wonderful. Goes with your playing, I hope you are still playing it in 30 years time and never suffer gas. You are on the yellow brick road fella.

Don't care about that,Jordan.

I learned ,years ago, in the Brussels Jazz school this convention about {little triangle=Maj7},with a 7th implied in the chord.
Maybe it's a Belgian (or European) convention ?
cheers
HB

[Robertkoa]

As a B13b5

7-8-7-4-4-4 great pivot chord multiple resolutions and neutral sounding in a good way for a 13b5

Cat Stevens could use this Chord...

7-8-7-6-4-4 with the 9th more tension ( cause no triad on top )

And on the first voicing moving to
this :
6-7-6-4-4-4 creates a Major 7 #11 retaining the minor triad as a common triad .

I will have stuff up later in the year because I need to get a Keyboard Workstation again...to program tracks.







I actually wrote a cool Blues -Dorian- just the chords - but a slightly expanded Form- it's Jazz with cool passing chords
that keep going down from the v to the iv
to biii - all Minors but the passing chord in between makes them flow really well.
I am going to put that in Ireal but don't think It will be Rhythmically correct or voiced as well as I do on Guitar..it's very slick ...

It is really fun to solo on.

The Dorian Blues I will program in iReal soon ..and put here in a Thread.

[jordanklemons]

As a B13b5

7-8-7-4-4-4 great pivot chord multiple resolutions and neutral sounding in a good way for a 13b5

Cat Stevens could use this Chord...

7-8-7-6-4-4 with the 9th more tension ( cause no triad on top )

And on the first voicing moving to
this :
6-7-6-4-4-4 creates a Major 7 #11 retaining the minor triad as a common triad .

I will have stuff up later in the year because I need to get a Keyboard Workstation again...to program tracks.

Nice voicings Robert. I'm not seeing the major triad though... probably because I'm not a morning person. Can you point it out? I think you said something about a major triad and a minor triad overlapping on the top 4 strings?

Either way, sounds cool.

I actually wrote a cool Blues -Dorian- just the chords - but a slightly expanded Form- it's Jazz with cool passing chords
that keep going down from the v to the iv
to biii - all Minors but the passing chord in between makes them flow really well.
I am going to put that in Ireal but don't think It will be Rhythmically correct or voiced as well as I do on Guitar..it's very slick ...

It is really fun to solo on.

The Dorian Blues I will program in iReal soon ..and put here in a Thread.

Looking forward to checking it out!

[jordanklemons]

Triple G... I didn't follow your last message. I think I missed something. Help a brutha out.

[Robertkoa]

Happy to hear it!



So this is awesome Robert. Your A-13,11,9 chord is straight out of top-down chord construction... whether you intended it to be or not. You've got the Bmin triad on the top 3 strings, and the 1-b3-b7 on the lower 3 strings. And it sounds beautiful. This is the same chord that someone was asking about earlier for using the harmonize the E note over the G-7 chord at the beginning of Blue in Green. Except in that case, it would be an Amin triad over G-7... and it would be an inversion. Same tonality though.



Now the crazy interesting thing to me, and this is so tied in with where I was trying to go with my thesis, is that you find doubling the b3 to create a more tense chord. Isn't that bizarre? Why would adding the b3 (or doubling it) of a min7 chord create more tension? By the book theory (bottom-up chord construction) tells us the b3 is an integral note, a stable chord tone... yet getting rid of an 'extension' or a 'tension' note and replacing it with this stable chord tone creates a chord that's MORE tense?!?!? How does that work?

So there's a few reasons why this might be. First, it puts a tritone inside the chord. But that's not the end of the world. Tritones don't ruin chords. Sometimes tense intervals hiding inside voicings can make them more beautiful. And this is directly in the middle of the voicing. But it's possible your ear could be hearing that interval and finding it tense. Other people may have different theories, but I'm going to explain why it's more tense this way using the top-down chord construction ideas from my thesis.

There are certain sounds in music that I refer to as parasite sounds. They are sounds that have such a strong and powerful energy, that they are able to take over the quality of other sounds when placed in them. Triads are one such parasite sound. When you place a triad in the highest 3 voices of a voicing, that triad takes over the chord and causes it to behave differently and function around it. It become the melodic tonic. This means that when you place a Bmin triad over an A-7 chord (yielding an A-13,11,9), the notes of the Bmin triad will actually function melodically as the strongest and most stable notes. This is not a theoretical argument. I'm simply using theory to talk about what any of us could hear by testing and observing this musically.

That means that B-D-F# (the 9, 11, and 13) of the A- chord are now functioning as the stable notes, and A-C-E-G (the 1, b3, 5 , and b7) are functioning as the tension notes. I know that sounds @$$backwards, but give it a quick listen and I think you'll hear what I'm talking about... (please excuse the terrible piano skills... I only use it for ear training and arranging... not very good at actually playing the thing).

Notice that the B note is the strongest resolution? And the A and the C notes both seem to be behaving as tension notes? Over an A-7 chord. But that's the parasite quality of that Bmin triad over it. It's causing the notes to behave differently. Which means that when you replace the D note (from the Bmin triad) with the C note (the b3 of the chord you're playing), it actually is behaving like a tension note. It's like playing a b2/b9 (The C note behaving like that over the 'Bmin' melodic tonic). Hence, it cause a lot of tension. At the end of the video I played your exact voicing, and then your other exact voicing with the C note added in the middle. Can you hear how desperately it wants to move up or down back to one of the stable notes of the Bmin triad? Weird, right?

IMO, using the top-down theory, that's why the chord sounds more tense when you get rid of the upper extension/tension note and add the stable chord tone... because that chord tone is actually behaving like a tension note against the triad that's running the show. Hopefully that makes sense. The melodic applications of this system can be a little complicated and difficult to explain via typed work. I hope the video helps show what I'm trying to explain. Hearing it is the most important.

Yes- The overtone series takes over and causes the more solidly resonant triad to become the central 'planet ' and the secondary triad to kind of become secondary .

OR by common usage one grouping or triad may just sound more important to people's ears via conditioning ( common usage ) .

And sometimes chords are just stacked intervals and don't fit into the math - the interval stacks take precedence .