Reimagining the Fretboard: A New Approach to Harmonic Development

[Robertkoa]

you're on the right track thinking in triads. That's how the guys did it. Don't screw it up thinking about freakin Phrygian mode.

Think about key relationships, not modes, that's how they did it.

Keys a half step apart and a minor third apart. And here I thought I was taking that secret to my grave. Look at the triads in those key relationships. Top down secondary key in triads over a bass line in the main key and the other way around.

I am at a less advanced stage than most of you but prefer to use Parent Keys versus "Modes" ..
Are you saying that a 6 Note Chord can yield or allow use of the Parent Major Key of it's Major Triad and a second Parent Key for it's Minor Triad ( if it contains both) and targeting those Triads differently ( if you want to) for Improv ?

[jordanklemons]

Thank you very much ...
I was finally able to easily download it by using Chrome rather than the default Adobe App on my phone .

Happy to hear it!

I am going to absorb your Concepts and the Voicings I like for my Expanded R&B Stuff

My pet voicing for a Big Minor 6 7 9 11 :

on A minor for example is 5 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 7 -7
the top 3 Notes are a mini barrè with pinky.
Beautiful Chord .

So this is awesome Robert. Your A-13,11,9 chord is straight out of top-down chord construction... whether you intended it to be or not. You've got the Bmin triad on the top 3 strings, and the 1-b3-b7 on the lower 3 strings. And it sounds beautiful. This is the same chord that someone was asking about earlier for using the harmonize the E note over the G-7 chord at the beginning of Blue in Green. Except in that case, it would be an Amin triad over G-7... and it would be an inversion. Same tonality though.

And as a A Minor 7 6 9:

5 - 3 - 5 -5 - 7- 7 doubling the b3 and has more tension than the Minor 6 7 9 11 above.

Now the crazy interesting thing to me, and this is so tied in with where I was trying to go with my thesis, is that you find doubling the b3 to create a more tense chord. Isn't that bizarre? Why would adding the b3 (or doubling it) of a min7 chord create more tension? By the book theory (bottom-up chord construction) tells us the b3 is an integral note, a stable chord tone... yet getting rid of an 'extension' or a 'tension' note and replacing it with this stable chord tone creates a chord that's MORE tense?!?!? How does that work?

So there's a few reasons why this might be. First, it puts a tritone inside the chord. But that's not the end of the world. Tritones don't ruin chords. Sometimes tense intervals hiding inside voicings can make them more beautiful. And this is directly in the middle of the voicing. But it's possible your ear could be hearing that interval and finding it tense. Other people may have different theories, but I'm going to explain why it's more tense this way using the top-down chord construction ideas from my thesis.

There are certain sounds in music that I refer to as parasite sounds. They are sounds that have such a strong and powerful energy, that they are able to take over the quality of other sounds when placed in them. Triads are one such parasite sound. When you place a triad in the highest 3 voices of a voicing, that triad takes over the chord and causes it to behave differently and function around it. It become the melodic tonic. This means that when you place a Bmin triad over an A-7 chord (yielding an A-13,11,9), the notes of the Bmin triad will actually function melodically as the strongest and most stable notes. This is not a theoretical argument. I'm simply using theory to talk about what any of us could hear by testing and observing this musically.

That means that B-D-F# (the 9, 11, and 13) of the A- chord are now functioning as the stable notes, and A-C-E-G (the 1, b3, 5 , and b7) are functioning as the tension notes. I know that sounds @$$backwards, but give it a quick listen and I think you'll hear what I'm talking about... (please excuse the terrible piano skills... I only use it for ear training and arranging... not very good at actually playing the thing).

Notice that the B note is the strongest resolution? And the A and the C notes both seem to be behaving as tension notes? Over an A-7 chord. But that's the parasite quality of that Bmin triad over it. It's causing the notes to behave differently. Which means that when you replace the D note (from the Bmin triad) with the C note (the b3 of the chord you're playing), it actually is behaving like a tension note. It's like playing a b2/b9 (The C note behaving like that over the 'Bmin' melodic tonic). Hence, it cause a lot of tension. At the end of the video I played your exact voicing, and then your other exact voicing with the C note added in the middle. Can you hear how desperately it wants to move up or down back to one of the stable notes of the Bmin triad? Weird, right?

IMO, using the top-down theory, that's why the chord sounds more tense when you get rid of the upper extension/tension note and add the stable chord tone... because that chord tone is actually behaving like a tension note against the triad that's running the show. Hopefully that makes sense. The melodic applications of this system can be a little complicated and difficult to explain via typed work. I hope the video helps show what I'm trying to explain. Hearing it is the most important.

[jordanklemons]

Jordan,

I was wondering, what software did you use to create the text and diagrams with?

Hans

It's actually a font I bought from this guy Manne Schlaier. It was sooooo helpful and had a bunch of great features that I wanted/needed that I was struggling to find elsewhere. And Manne was super nice and helpful. Great for making chord and scale diagrams. Strongly recommended. Tell Manne I said hello if you talk with him

Font

[Nate Miller]

I am at a less advanced stage than most of you but prefer to use Parent Keys versus "Modes" ..
Are you saying that a 6 Note Chord can yield or allow use of the Parent Major Key of it's Major Triad and a second Parent Key for it's Minor Triad ( if it contains both) and targeting those Triads differently ( if you want to) for Improv ?

no, not that. I am talking about playing in two keys at the same time. Like Db and D at the same time

Its definitely not a common thing these days, so if you never ran into that idea before, don't worry too much about it

but in any key there are triads built off of each of the notes in the scale. So 2 keys gives you 2 sets of triads

Triads from one key against a bass note from the other key (the triad + 1 extra note idea) can give you some really lush harmonies, especially when the melody note is the top voice.

that's what I was talking about. Rather than look at modes, look at relationships between keys.

[jordanklemons]

see, I don't know if diatonic eliminates the fancier options, it probably makes them a little harder to find. like with A triad over G minor it just comes from harmonic minor or D over E half dim comes from melodic minor. I usually try to use scales to justify the sounds after I find them.

As for diatonic triads that don't work, I was working through the goodrick/miller book (someone mentioned it here not so long ago) and one of the first things is he goes through a scale in triads and its inversions over the changes to stella. He starts with F to G- triads over an E halfdim, now for a long time I jut kept going through this hating the sound of those two triads over that chord (the F more than the G) but then I combined the 2 into a G-11 sound and now I really dig those 2 triads over the half dim (it's a bland sort of sound to my ear but I think it works depending on how you voice it). so I think those initial triads that don't work can be persuaded to work well(still going to be a crunchier sound over an F# triad though).

I follow my ear as well but theory says we can play a b9 over a minor chord and I want to figure out a way to do that. I think what the ear says and what theory says should equal the same thing.

now I'm going to say something that's probably controversial but I think the b9 over works over a ma7 chord play a C lydian #5 but then when you get to the A play A major , it sounds better than going back to the tonic to me.

Yeah, you might be right. You may be able to find all the same sounds just by looking through every scale that works with a chord. The only worry I would personally have is just that not all of those triads are going to work well... so you're still going to have to rely on your ear and make decisions and choices about what you like and don't like.

Also, depending on what scales and notes you use for each chord, you may be unknowingly limiting yourself. For instance, I love the sound of the #9 over a Maj7 chord. I'm not sure I have any scales I used to use over a Maj7 chord that contained that note until I sat and listened to all of my individual notes against each chord. So I never would have discovered how much I love the sound of BMaj or a G#min triad over a CMaj7 chord. But if you are using scales that contain those triads, you may have found them. I wouldn't have.

But honestly, to me, anything that gets anyone listening to what's really there and making choices about what they do or don't love makes me happy. So I say go for it if that's where you're feeling pulled towards.

[nick1994]

Yeah, you might be right. You may be able to find all the same sounds just by looking through every scale that works with a chord. The only worry I would personally have is just that not all of those triads are going to work well... so you're still going to have to rely on your ear and make decisions and choices about what you like and don't like.

Also, depending on what scales and notes you use for each chord, you may be unknowingly limiting yourself. For instance, I love the sound of the #9 over a Maj7 chord. I'm not sure I have any scales I used to use over a Maj7 chord that contained that note until I sat and listened to all of my individual notes against each chord. So I never would have discovered how much I love the sound of BMaj or a G#min triad over a CMaj7 chord. But if you are using scales that contain those triads, you may have found them. I wouldn't have.

But honestly, to me, anything that gets anyone listening to what's really there and making choices about what they do or don't love makes me happy. So I say go for it if that's where you're feeling pulled towards.

I still do rely on my ear, as one of my teachers once told me, whatever you are doing, always trust the ear over anything else, ear is king. I really want to get to the point where I am comfortable with any note combination. the #9 over major7 is a really cool sound, but that can be found in the harmonic minor mode lydian #9 which is based off the b6th of the scale, but it can limit the sort of sounds you get but only if you stick to one scale. plus scales don't have to dictate anything, we are the ones playing we dictate them. but that really doesn't matter we both like the sound and both found ways to it.

[SeanZ]

congratulations Jordan and thanks for sharing!

[jordanklemons]

I still do rely on my ear, as one of my teachers once told me, whatever you are doing, always trust the ear over anything else, ear is king. I really want to get to the point where I am comfortable with any note combination. the #9 over major7 is a really cool sound, but that can be found in the harmonic minor mode lydian #9 which is based off the b6th of the scale, but it can limit the sort of sounds you get but only if you stick to one scale. plus scales don't have to dictate anything, we are the ones playing we dictate them. but that really doesn't matter we both like the sound and both found ways to it.

Absolutely!

[Robertkoa]

Definitely.

I hear that. I thought it was the 11th "softening" the Chord but it's the Triad on top !

Also when I play lines off the minor triad
it is prettier and if I target the bottom of the Chord it is more "Urban" Bluesy -R&B.

I just thought of this as a " unique" voicing but now you are suggesting a whole "class" of these...

A way to make more versatile voicings.

Funny a lot of my favorite Guitar Voicings I use are big Voicings like this and they often have the triad on top.

They seem to bridge the gap between
Pop /R&B/ Hendrix/ Steely Dan/ Stevie
W. and Jazz.

I like this concept because I was using it by trial and error ...but now I can find them or build them more purposefully and know the "why".

You will hear tons of these in my music .
Luckily not many people use them so they sound "fresh".

By the way If I used this Voicing in "So What " in addition to the common more quartal voicings...would it annoy Jazz Pros if I do it Onstage sitting in ?

I see how sonically and in practical use
Your Theory is Sound ( pun intended!).

Thanks very much - cool to have you demonstrate it and I can hear it for sure .

I would never have thought a Triad which is not the Root of the Chord can have such a strong effect !

The Extensions are taking on a life of their own- stronger than the Root Triad in many ways.

[jordanklemons]

By the way If I used this Voicing in "So What " in addition to the common more quartal voicings...would it annoy Jazz Pros if I do it Onstage sitting in ?

I suppose it all depends on the situation. It would annoy me if you were using it in an annoying way, and it wouldn't annoy me if you were using it in a non-annoying way.
I think that's the best I can say. Maybe others can chime in on that.

I see how sonically and in practical use
Your Theory is Sound ( pun intended!).

Love it. Never scale back on the cheesy puns.

I would never have thought a Triad which is not the Root of the Chord can have such a strong effect !

The Extensions are taking on a life of their own- stronger than the Root Triad in many ways.

Yeah, it's pretty trippy, right? Man, when I first noticed that and started consciously playing this way it really messed with my head for a bit. When I started running into chords (like the one we're talking about) where the root note behaves like a tension melodically... that had my head spinning for a couple weeks.

When I listen back to my playing before I started studying this stuff, I can hear myself using a lot of these 'extensions' in very strong ways. My ear was digging them and finding ways to make them work. But there wasn't a lot of clarity to them. I don't dislike my playing before this, but it wasn't as smooth. But realizing that it can all be organized with a basic triad, and that it will make the prettiest and most colorful notes turn into the most stable notes... now it's so easy to go straight for the prettiest notes and to know exactly where everything is that I want. And I never sacrifice the clarity of the tonality and the depth of color to get to a resolution note... because now I understand that the bottom-up chord tones aren't always the best resolution points.

That said... realizing all this, and being able to play melodically within the upper structure of chords has also REALLY made me appreciate and fall in love with the basic root structure triads. Sometimes these days I won't even use 7 chords. I'll just use the basic 1-3-5 triad... or maybe an add2 chord. I actually prefer that sound over the 7 chords for the 7 chords with 'extensions' at times.

These days, I mostly just follow the melodic progression written into the melody by the composer. So whatever triad they were hearing when they wrote the tune is usually what I'll use to improvise with. I'm still only about a year into exploring these ideas. So I'm sticking mostly to the basics. I figure in a couple of years I'll let myself off the leash to move around more... but for now, it's almost like relearning everything again from the ground up... so I'm sticking to the basics.

[pkirk]

Can you elaborate on how one generates the tension note that was shown on page 16 for each triad in the grid for Blue in Green to form the 'Quadrad' in Stefon Harris' system? Apologies if I am being dense but the pattern isn't jumping out at me and I am not at an instrument to play around with the sounds right now.

Yeah this is a bit of a tricky question to answer typed out. There's a sort of method to it, but there are so many exceptions and sticky issues that can come up. The basic idea is to choose from the lower structure notes. The idea is not only to create tension, but also to glue the triad to the lower structure harmony, so that it doesn't feel disconnected. But there are rules and issues that come up.

Sorry, but that's about the best answer I can give in a typed situation. It's something that I need to go over multiple chords with someone for a while until things start to click for them.

Jordan, very interesting. But I'm also confused about this. if your example, the lower structure is Gmin, you choose the upper structure triad C, then add the note F to make up your quadrad. So F comes in as the 7th of the Gmin a strong chord tone, but as the 4th of C, which kind of kills the Cmaj triad. The next chord has lower structure A and upper structure F maj, and you use a C#, the 3rd of the A, but a b6 from the point of the view of Fmaj, again kind of killing the major triad.

going through the list sometimes the fourth note in your quadrad clashes with the upper structure triad, as above, or sometimes it doesn't i.e when you the added note is a 9th of the upper structure.

IN particular, if you now start dropping notes from the quadrad it seems like you run the risk of losing whatever strong melodic content the upper structure triad was giving you in the first place.

if you could say a bit more about this is would be cool

[jordanklemons]

Jordan, very interesting. But I'm also confused about this. if your example, the lower structure is Gmin, you choose the upper structure triad C, then add the note F to make up your quadrad. So F comes in as the 7th of the Gmin a strong chord tone, but as the 4th of C, which kind of kills the Cmaj triad. The next chord has lower structure A and upper structure F maj, and you use a C#, the 3rd of the A, but a b6 from the point of the view of Fmaj, again kind of killing the major triad.

going through the list sometimes the fourth note in your quadrad clashes with the upper structure triad, as above, or sometimes it doesn't i.e when you the added note is a 9th of the upper structure.

IN particular, if you now start dropping notes from the quadrad it seems like you run the risk of losing whatever strong melodic content the upper structure triad was giving you in the first place.

if you could say a bit more about this is would be cool

Man, you guys ask great questions.

The primary intention or goal of the quadrad is to create a starting point for melodic momentum... movement. If you were going to improvise over that first chord (G-13,11) your most stable notes, the notes that would melodically function as Do, Mi, and So, will be the CMaj triad. But it can get really boring and stale to improvise using ONLY a triad. Unless you're mixing and matching multiple triads together and simply arpeggiating them. But if we're just sticking with one triad to develop a specific tonality, then it's going to sound dull and lifeless. It needs some tension to create movement... it needs another note to push the momentum of the melody in a forward direction. So we add a 4th note to create movement.

It also obscures the fact that we're just playing around with a triad and makes it seem like there's a lot more going on. So in that sense... yes... it does sort of kill the triad. But that's okay... imo. So that 4th note helps create movement and helps obscure how simple what we're playing is.

But it serves another purpose. One that's especially helpful when we start building chords with the quadrad. It serves as the glue that holds the upper structure and the lower structure together. If a piano player played that first chord fully extended (G-7 in the left hand and a CMaj triad in the right), you wouldn't hear JUST a CMaj triad. Once you get used to the bell like quality of these types of chords, you might know he's using a triad, but it wouldn't sound like JUST a triad. It's the way the two chords combine together that creates the overall tonality. So adding an F note to the C triad imitates that idea... in a more minimalist way. And the clashing and friction between the triad and that tension note (especially when played over a low pitched root note) really creates a very colorful version of the tonality. For me. I think they sound great. But others may disagree.

When we start dropping notes, things start to get a little more ambiguous... but the vibe is still there... again... for me it is. Maybe not for you. But even when playing the dyads where half the notes are missing... if you play two consecutive dyads, you've just stated the entire quadrad.

Jay was asking if I was using any of this stuff in my Body and Soul video. I went back to listen to remind myself how much I was using it. Check out the cadenza at the end. You can fast forward to 5 minutes in. It starts with a rubato thing over Ab7b13#9 chord (E triad over Ab7... same chord you were asking about except a half step lower). First I'm playing single notes. Then I move to three note structures. Then, after resolving to the tonic chord, I do a little descending run down the fretboard of 3 note structures built from the quadrad of that last chord.

I don't think anybody would ever listen to that cadenza and think... "Oh, he's just playing a triad, this sounds boring and childish." I don't think they would hahahaha... I hope not at least.

The 4th note obscures the triad so it sounds like there's a lot more happening. In reality... it's all quite simple.

Does that answer your question P?

[pkirk]

Does that answer your question P?

Yeah, I think so. But I see that I need to play around with the idea to get the sound in my ear.

Maybe a shorter answer would be: the added note gives you four notes worth of melodic choices (richer than just a triad), contains the triad to get that "upper structure" sound, but the added note from the lower structure reminds the listener that you in fact know what you're doing.

[diminix]

Maybe a shorter answer would be: the added note gives you four notes worth of melodic choices (richer than just a triad), contains the triad to get that "upper structure" sound, but the added note from the lower structure reminds the listener that you in fact know what you're doing.

Hey Paul,

hope you're doing well back home! As a beginner I am stepping on thin ice in a thread like that, but I hope to learn something... Isn't the F rather an approach note in the context of the upper structure triad (which is used for melody)? So the F is upper diatonic neighbouring tone for E, lower diatonic neighbouring tone for G, passing tone between both of them. If any note has to be considered in the harmonic context, for a noob like me (learning from solos of others) it would provide hard times to analyse any note of a line as a functional member of the underlying chord...

Robert

[Vladan]

The way I see it, presented is a search method, one way of, how to find what you like. Whenyou find it, you don't have to use everything from intermediate steps. You keep what's usefull and connect it with what was already there and that you have to do as needed, not as prescribed. Only after a while it will become automatic, from experience.

[vintagelove]

Hey guys,

So I've mentioned my thesis a bunch of times on here, and on the topic I was writing about...

I've been planning on, and talking about, posting my thesis here on the forum for anyone interested. However I've been holding off until I could pick up the final, graded copy from my advisor. I wanted to see what notes he left for me so I could make any necessary changes before putting this thing out publicly.

But it's proving harder than I expected to meet up with him. So whatever. I may make a couple changes to this at some point after talking with him. But this was the final draft that I turned in.

It's only about 24 pages, and a lot of that is made up of examples, chord charts, chord melodies, and comping etudes. Here's the thesis abstract to give you a quick summary of what to expect. Feel free to download a copy and check it out. And please hit me up with any questions or comments you might have. I'd love to hear them.


Abstract
This study will examine an advanced view of harmony, both in theory and in application to the physical realities of the guitar. Guitarists generally approach chords with a bottom-up view, building them up from the root. This creates an harmonic environment where voicings are weighted towards the lower end of the chords’ structures. Upper extensions are treated as separate entities added on if possible. I will present a top-down approach to harmony where the emphasis and priority of the chord will be placed in the upper register of its structure. I will use the jazz standard Blue in Green, an analysis of its melody, upper structure triads, and ideas developed by Stefon Harris to create a new harmonic vocabulary for the guitar. For each chord I explore I will chart out a new set of voicings on the fretboard. These will include full chords (5-6notes), mini chords (3-4 notes), and dyads. I will provide examples of how these voicings can be used in Blue in Green both to create chord-melody arrangements and to apply to comping situations. I hope to create a new chordal vocabulary for myself that is more deeply connected to the melodies I am harmonizing and which offers a richer and more colorful palette of tonalities. I am documenting the exploration in this thesis to help other guitarists interested in expanding their own approach to harmony.

Hi, I had the chance to go through this. I just wanted to say beyond the presented material (which is excellent), the writing was very well done. It did the job of explaining the information in a clear, simple manner. It is easy to use a whole bunch of flowery language, to make you look like a better writer, but does nothing except confuse the reader. This did away with all the fluff and got right down to business. If you continue writing, this style will get you somewhere.

The material is great, while I haven't played through the examples yet (just read through it), I have done some work with the quadrad concept, and its really is something. I just wanted to mention two important words that helped me conceptualize it, and truly describes the way they function.

Melodic Tonic

Harmonic tonic

The first time you hear the note that should belong to the Harmonic Tonic act as a tension that wants to resolve back into the Melodic tonic, it's a head scratcher. Give it a bit and it makes complete sense. Appreciate you turning me on to the concept. Well done!!!

P.S. A welcome addition to anything jazz ed is a nice set of ii V examples. I realize the harmonies are melody dependent, so, without a melody.... But perhaps you could make a set of ii V examples based around common extensions (I know you're not fond of that word, but when in Rome...) used as melody notes, for instance many times the 13 of the dom7 is a melody note over a ii V (think last couple bars of Days of Wine and Roses), a couple voicings for that (and other common) situation would be a welcome addition to the material presented, and perhaps make it easier for someone new to the concept to integrate into their own playing.


P.P.S. Perhaps an example or two of the Quadrad topic that demonstrates the function of the Harmonic/Melodic tonic. For example, from one of your earlier posts

Example 1 - CMaj9 chord (CMaj in the left hand and a G major triad in the right)
start playing just G triad, then add E (forms a quadrant), that E (which should be consonant with the harmonic tonic) now creates tension and wants to resolve back to the G triad (Melodic Tonic), all of a sudden C no longer sounds like a stable/tonic note over a C chord.

[srlank]

Congratulation Jordan! I'll be checking this out over the weekend.

[jordanklemons]

Yeah, I think so. But I see that I need to play around with the idea to get the sound in my ear.

Maybe a shorter answer would be: the added note gives you four notes worth of melodic choices (richer than just a triad), contains the triad to get that "upper structure" sound, but the added note from the lower structure reminds the listener that you in fact know what you're doing.

Hey Paul,

hope you're doing well back home! As a beginner I am stepping on thin ice in a thread like that, but I hope to learn something... Isn't the F rather an approach note in the context of the upper structure triad (which is used for melody)? So the F is upper diatonic neighbouring tone for E, lower diatonic neighbouring tone for G, passing tone between both of them. If any note has to be considered in the harmonic context, for a noob like me (learning from solos of others) it would provide hard times to analyse any note of a line as a functional member of the underlying chord...

Robert

I hope you won't feel too such like stepping on thin ice Robert. I know it may come off as complex and advanced... but the idea is actually very simple and built on the fundamentals really. I think the trickiest part about this is that I learned it by HEARING the ideas first. The guy I studied with played it on the piano and the vibes so I heard it, then I played it, THEN I went back to try and understand it and extrapolate all I could from the theory. And the only reason I trusted him enough to play along and have my musical world turned upside down is because I knew his playing very well and he's sick and plays with so many incredible musicians. So based on his playing, I trusted him enough to mess with my own. I can imagine it being tough to learn this stuff theory first from someone random online.

On the forum, and especially reading an academic thesis, I can really only talk about the theory. But I'd encourage you guys to try out the examples in the paper if you haven't already, and maybe check out any number of videos I've shared with me using some of these ideas.

We often think of pentatonic scales as being easier to learn and utilize then the full major scale... basically because there are less notes. The quadrad is almost like a simpler version of a pentatonic scale, with only 4 notes instead of 5. The difference being that it's built from a triad and is therefore specific to each chord.

When I was teaching at NYU I worked with a lot of non-music majors. They varied greatly in style and level. A handful of them wanted to learn to improvise. In the past, I would have just shown them a pentatonic scale position. But because I've been studying quadrads, I showed them a basic, introductory 4-note grouping. These were not over standards... just over a static, basic chord. Within just a couple of weeks, most of them were playing really beautiful, lyrical, melodic lines. I was actually quite surprised how quickly they sounded like legit, mature, seasoned musicians. When teaching with scales, it seemed to take months if not years to get students to play something great. But showing them where the triad notes were, and giving them 1 tension note to use against it, and they were almost immediately making really nice sounding ideas.

So I think it can actually be really powerful for more beginner level players. I plan to utilize this stuff in my teaching moving forward for sure. But again... it can be a little tough to start with the theory and try to understand it before actually just hearing it. It takes a very intellectually driven person to go about it that way, I think.

[bako]

Jordan,

Congratulations on being just that close to graduated.

Questions

How do you address a situation where the melody clearly reflects the lower structure notes?

On life beyond the chord symbol of a lead sheet:

In essence it seems like the quadrad on it's own is like an alternate chord symbol seasoned to taste.
Many improvisors will expand on the basic palette via the use of passing and approach chords.
At what level do you feel compelled to supplement the chosen 4 notes?
If you also make use of passing and approach chords?
Do you approach the fundamental chord? the quadrad? both?

You raise the interesting point about how the extension triad can sound more resolved than the functional chord as demonstrated in your piano video. How much of that though is tied into the way that you featured those
notes of Bm? When I feature the Am7 chord tones melodically, the Bm chord tones sound like suspensions or extensions on Am7. What this tells me is that perception can be altered by the choices that we make as to
which notes are important.

Thanks,
Bako

[pkirk]

Hey Paul,

hope you're doing well back home! As a beginner I am stepping on thin ice in a thread like that, but I hope to learn something... Isn't the F rather an approach note in the context of the upper structure triad (which is used for melody)? So the F is upper diatonic neighbouring tone for E, lower diatonic neighbouring tone for G, passing tone between both of them. If any note has to be considered in the harmonic context, for a noob like me (learning from solos of others) it would provide hard times to analyse any note of a line as a functional member of the underlying chord...

Robert

Hey Robert, I'm heading home tomorrow (I've been in Regensburg the last month).

I can't say I understand your question, and it seems that Jordan has addressed it below, but from my perspective my take away from Jordan's thesis is that it is one more method to play with when working on improvisation. Everybody knows the "play the scale that fits the chord-of-the-moment" approach to improvising, lots of people know other things, like "think of small chord progressions as units (e.g. II-V-I, Imaj-Imin, etc) and improvise off these units", or "use symmetric patterns" etc. I take the approach that Jordan outlines as yet another explicit technique to try out in the practice room.

I took a lesson once with Corey Christiansen and he told me "you're playing lots of the language and right lines, but I'd like to hear a few more melodies." Since then, I try to introduce more melodic parts to my solos, but I'm mostly going by intuition, and although I haven't had time to work on it yet, Jordan's assertion that his is a *method to be melodic* is appealing.

[jordanklemons]

Hi, I had the chance to go through this. I just wanted to say beyond the presented material (which is excellent), the writing was very well done. It did the job of explaining the information in a clear, simple manner. It is easy to use a whole bunch of flowery language, to make you look like a better writer, but does nothing except confuse the reader. This did away with all the fluff and got right down to business. If you continue writing, this style will get you somewhere.

Thanks so much VL!

The material is great, while I haven't played through the examples yet (just read through it), I have done some work with the quadrad concept, and its really is something. I just wanted to mention two important words that helped me conceptualize it, and truly describes the way they function.

Melodic Tonic

Harmonic tonic

The first time you hear the note that should belong to the Harmonic Tonic act as a tension that wants to resolve back into the Melodic tonic, it's a head scratcher. Give it a bit and it makes complete sense. Appreciate you turning me on to the concept. Well done!!!

I can't say yes to this enough.

P.S. A welcome addition to anything jazz ed is a nice set of ii V examples. I realize the harmonies are melody dependent, so, without a melody.... But perhaps you could make a set of ii V examples based around common extensions (I know you're not fond of that word, but when in Rome...) used as melody notes, for instance many times the 13 of the dom7 is a melody note over a ii V (think last couple bars of Days of Wine and Roses), a couple voicings for that (and other common) situation would be a welcome addition to the material presented, and perhaps make it easier for someone new to the concept to integrate into their own playing.

P.P.S. Perhaps an example or two of the Quadrad topic that demonstrates the function of the Harmonic/Melodic tonic. For example, from one of your earlier posts

Example 1 - CMaj9 chord (CMaj in the left hand and a G major triad in the right)
start playing just G triad, then add E (forms a quadrant), that E (which should be consonant with the harmonic tonic) now creates tension and wants to resolve back to the G triad (Melodic Tonic), all of a sudden C no longer sounds like a stable/tonic note over a C chord.

Thanks for the suggestion. The CMaj9 exercise is a great idea to check out.

Here's the only ii V (I think) from Blue in Green. The ii is a C-11(9) (BbMaj triad over C-7... quadrad is BbMaj + Eb) and the V is an F13b9 (DMaj triad over F7... quadrad is DMaj + Eb). I'm improvising some basic lines using ONLY the two quadrads. Maybe it will be helpful to hear the quadrads being used melodically. At the end I resolve to a BbMaj7 chord (Dmin triad). Again... you can see how the Bb note is behaving like a tension against the Dmin triad... it's like a b6 wanting to resolve down to the 5th... the A note.

Maybe that helps? I know reading an entire thesis filled with theory about this topic can seem very intellectual and advanced. But the idea and the application is really quite simple. Maybe try listening to the melodies of these two chords first. Then try and find one octave of the quadrad for each chord and see if you can play along with me. Just to get the idea into your fingers and ears.

[wolflen]

Jordan...

this thread is quite amazing...one can see it in almost metaphoric terms as an old Eastern teaching of 5 blind men describing an elephant..each one touching a different part of the animal..and "seeing" it-describing it- very different from each other..

my image is that of a jig-saw puzzle..the picture is an apple with red, green and some gold stripes on it..the first thing you want to find are the borders..then perhaps locate all the red pieces and try and fit them together..then the green and so on...and after some time the pieces are easier to fit together..even though by themselves they are as incomplete as when you first started and had no idea how to even connect two pieces in the immense maze..and near the end of fitting all the pieces..you can intuit which piece will fit where..at a much faster rate..

I have read a few puzzle experts tell how to put one together faster.."isolate all the red pieces..then make little puzzles of 10 pieces each and try and find pieces that fit together in each group of 10 and then try and fit those pieces together with each group of 10 pieces and so on"

much like chord/scale puzzles .. "well this chord has a G and a Bb in it..lets see what other chords have these notes..and lets see if the G minor scale works over all the chord we find with G and Bb notes.."

the overview..as I see it..we are trying our best to grasp MUSIC in its entirety..to be able to improvise with such freedom and command that we could quote Bach and Berry in the same solo..at will!!

Your take is as valid as anyone else's trying to find a shortcut home..I use augmented and diminished theory to draw my "map" .. and when we realize all the books and teaching vids etc out there..that are going to "explain" and show us all the secrets of the universe..well..reincarnation would have to be in our future..we reach a point in our studies where time becomes a very important element..our practice time becomes more valuable as we acquire more knowledge of music..it has the feeling we can almost see the entire "apple" in the puzzle..

I hope this effort of yours helps others to see the "apple"

thanks again...

[jordanklemons]

Congratulations on being just that close to graduated.

Thanks Bako! I actually turned this in already in December along with my graduation recording project and graduated. Back to the real world again. haha

How do you address a situation where the melody clearly reflects the lower structure notes?

I have zero qualms utilizing root structure triads from the harmony. I use the term upper structure triad in my thesis differently than others do. I'm simply referring to the triad that contains the melodic material. Because the melody sits above the harmony. I thought of calling it the 'Melodic Structure Triad', but I felt that sounded to complicated.

Many times the triad used in the melody calls for the basic 1-3-5 of the chord. In those cases, I think the best way to go is to utilize that basic triad. Every situation is a little different. Sometimes I'll still comp the chord as a 7th chord but improvise using the basic triad as the basis for the quadrad. Other times, I will throw the 7th out and treat it as a basic maj, min, or maj/min(add2) chord even when comping.

The 'upper structure' or the 'extensions' have nothing about them that's any better than the lower structure notes. The more comfortable I've gotten with how well I can control and manipulate them, the more comfortable I've become utilizing the simplest and most basic triads as well. It's all fair game to me.

On life beyond the chord symbol of a lead sheet:

In essence it seems like the quadrad on it's own is like an alternate chord symbol seasoned to taste.
Many improvisors will expand on the basic palette via the use of passing and approach chords.
At what level do you feel compelled to supplement the chosen 4 notes?
If you also make use of passing and approach chords?
Do you approach the fundamental chord? the quadrad? both?

Again, it's all fair game. Anybody can do anything. I've found that surrendering to the simplicity of the quadrad, while intellectually seemed like I was losing freedom, has actually turned out to be unbelievably freeing. "That which diminishes constraint, diminishes strength." Stravinsky said that. And I agree. It seems like it's limiting. But I've found the opposite to be true. It's offered me much more strength and clarity. I find it almost impossible to play lines that don't sound deep and musical by using these little guys. And yes, you can embellish them, you can use approach notes, passing tones, chromatic notes out the wazoo. But the best starting point (imo) is to stick to the 4 notes strictly to really get used to where they are on the fretboard, how they behave, and what they sound like. Then it becomes much easier to mess with. Just like with chords or scales... you start doing things by the book until you're good enough that it gets boring... then you can start to get creative and mess around with them.

You raise the interesting point about how the extension triad can sound more resolved than the functional chord as demonstrated in your piano video. How much of that though is tied into the way that you featured those
notes of Bm? When I feature the Am7 chord tones melodically, the Bm chord tones sound like suspensions or extensions on Am7. What this tells me is that perception can be altered by the choices that we make as to
which notes are important.

I'd have to actually hear how you're using it. Perception can be altered and messed with. But my guess is that if you're playing over Am7 and the Bmin triad notes sound like suspensions or extensions, it has to do with how you're voicing the Am7 chord. Maybe I'm wrong. But without hearing you play, that would be the first thing I'm curious about.

I just tried sitting at the piano and testing out what you're talking about. When I voice the chord out with the Bmin triad in my right hand, it's literally impossible for me to hear A-C-E as stable. I don't even need to play any melody notes first to set it up. Once I play the full chord and drop my hand on any of those 3 notes, I immediately want to move towards Bmin. That said, if I sit and ONLY play an Am7 chord with no Bmin triad in the highest voices, then absolutely I hear A-C-E as stable and the Bmin triad sounds like the tension notes. That's the very idea of the melodic progression. That it's not always the same as the harmonic progression. It can be. But not always. Which is why I always like to follow the information that the melody of the tune gives me.

It does all depends on how you're using it. If you're playing in a trio with no pianist, then you can do whatever you want to do. If you've got 3 or 4 or 8 or 10 different triads you're comfortable manipulating over a min7 chord, you can pick any of them that you want, or mix and match any of them. Or you can just use scales. If a bass player just hits an A note, you can pick from any scales or modes that contain that A note (or really you can do ANYTHING if you're comfortable enough). But the only way to get to that level of freedom with scales and modes is to get to know what each sounds like and how it behaves. This is the same idea, but on a smaller and more organized level. What happens when you use Bmin in the melodic progression of A-7? What happens when you use GMaj? Or Amin? Or CMaj? Or BMaj? Each will yield a different tonality and will cause the other notes to function and behave differently.

To me, the starting point is just to pick one and mess with it for a while. Then to pick a basic standard and apply the ideas to that tune but limiting ourselves to only one option per chord. To get used to how they work and how they can voice lead through each other. Later comes all the embellishments you were asking about, and the mixing and matching idea that we're currently talking about. imo.

[bako]

I guess I was defaulting to a bottom/up orientation.
I was starting from the orientation of Am7 and not Am13 (Bm over Am7) like you were.
Realigning my thinking, I agree with you totally about the stability of Bm.

[jordanklemons]

I guess I was defaulting to a bottom/up orientation.
I was starting from the orientation of Am7 and not Am13 (Bm over Am7) like you were.
Realigning my thinking, I agree with you totally about the stability of Bm.

Word. Yeah it's possible to organize these things in a lot of different ways. Leaves a lot of room for all sorts of different tonalities.