Does "altered" chord have a standard meaning?

[ameetnsharma]

Here it describes an altered chord as a dominant chord where neither the 5th nor 9th are unaltered :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altered_chord

So the 5th and 9th are either lowered, raised or omitted. That gives 9 possibilities (three for the 5th times three for the 9th).

However on a lot of youtube videos, I've seen the term "altered" chord used without any clarification as to exactly which chord we're talking about (raised or flatted ninth, raised or flatted fifth... not mentioned in the video). Why is this? is there a standard meaning here?

[nick1994]

Altered comes from melodic minor, so it means b5, b6 or b7, b9, #9 over a dominant chord

[ameetnsharma]

Altered comes from melodic minor, so it means b5, b6 or b7, b9, #9 over a dominant chord

Ok. But why don't people just specify the chord?

I mean... do all these alterations share a similar sound? or do they perform the same function (to get the melodic minor sound? ) ? This is what I'm not understanding.

[nick1994]

Sometimes people misuse to it to mean just b9 or #5, or just leave it ambiguous. most scores I've gotten specify alterations.

[christianm77]

If I write '7alt' I'm thinking of the altered scale. It's probably better practice to be more specific, but it depends on the music.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Ok. But why don't people just specify the chord?

I mean... do all these alterations share a similar sound? or do they perform the same function (to get the melodic minor sound? ) ? This is what I'm not understanding.

This drove me nuts too in the beginning. But I didn't really know any melodic minor either. Start with a 3rd and b7, and everything else is kind of on the table. It may seem crazy now, but that's actually a good thing. Later, you'll learn that you basically have to know what will work, in terms of all of your extensions, for ANY chord, based on context. In this respect alt cords are actually much simpler to understand. You immediately know what extensions work and what scale it's all based on.

All that being said, youdon't have to play every note in the scale to start with. Learn a couple of voicings and build from there. I certainly need to learn more. Often, altered somewhat references tritone substitution.

For example, if it's G7 alt , think rootless Db9 or 13:
XX3444
XX3446
there's probably a lesson on this site on altered chords. Check out some of those voicings as well to get started. I'm sure Matt Warnock has loads of material on his site for altered chords as well.

[Nate Miller]

I always took it to mean there was a#5 in there somewhere. I say that because the b5 shows up in diatonic triads. I also used to do some music copy work back when you had to write out charts by hand, and I know the copyist shorthand for the jazz chords.

If I just wrote "alt" I mean there's a #5 in there and it's getting late and I just want to get on with it

[docbop]

I just look at it as player choice which also includes nothing altered straight dominant 7th. I feel is they wanted specific alterations they would of written them. Also if a fake book or similar source could just be blowing changes which can be more of a sketch.

[mr. beaumont]

Altered means no unaltered 5th or 9ths, and use your EARS!

[matt.guitarteacher]

Yeah, it means a lot of things avoid natural 5 and 9 etc. you don't see a lot in the real book . So, when you do, it's probably making a statement about what the melody implies over the harmony or what the harmony implies relative to the key.

The best example in my mind is detour ahead. It's written as B7 alt , and that's probably the best description, there. It's in parentheses , by the way. But the melody, in C-major, over a B7 chord, is A G F G A B A. b5 and#5...

I learned to play it as a chord melody years ago, and thought, "so, THAT'S what the alt cord is about."

[Fortune]

7b13b9 = Altered

[NSJ]

Quickest way to play an ALT chord move up a half step from any dominant 7th and play a m6 chord. That will give you a #5, 3, b7 and b9.

[HighSpeedSpoon]

Quickest way to play an ALT chord move up a half step from any dominant 7th and play a m6 chord. That will give you a #5, 3, b7 and b9.

Thanks. I never thought of that. FWIW, it leads me to realize that one can start on the b7 and play a half diminished 7. For example, for G7alt, play F half dim 7. I don't know how well that would work.

[mr. beaumont]

Quickest way to play an ALT chord move up a half step from any dominant 7th and play a m6 chord. That will give you a #5, 3, b7 and b9.

Someone's been digging some Barry Harris, eh?

[docbop]

Quickest way to play an ALT chord move up a half step from any dominant 7th and play a m6 chord. That will give you a #5, 3, b7 and b9.

I like the Min(Ma7) up a half step has a bit edgier sound.

[cosmic gumbo]

When I see dom7 alt, I'm thinking whoever notated it wants an altered scale harmony used instead of mixolydian. Which altered dom7 chord I use depends on what it's resolving to, and what kind of tension or voice leading I choose, 'cuz it's jazz. My default is usually 7b5, it exploits tritone sub.

[christianm77]

Of course, it might seem a little pedantic, but I think it's actually quite important that the #5 is NOT part of the altered scale - the b13 is a flat 13 (or 6) not a 5. The 5 in the altered scale is flat...

Altered
1 b2 b3 b4 (3) b5 b6 b7

The #5 implies augmented harmony - usually the whole tone scale in swing and bop for example (think Bud Powell), or perhaps the b3/#2 in the blues over the tonic chord - for example a G7#5 in C could be because the melody is an Eb - think Ellington. Usually the extensions in standards repertoire are the melody note.)

There's nothing to stop you from making the sub #5 = b13 and playing altered, but that wasn't the original meaning of the chord (see Reg's use of melodic minor modes to contextualise blue notes.)

So what does this mean? Well I don't think that #5 is actually a fifth anymore it becomes a b13 when you use the altered - a second octave upper structure with a different function. I think of modes as stacked in thirds rather than stepwise - so the altered scale is:

1 b3 b5 b7 b9 b11(10) b13 1

Notice that the G7b5 triad does not appear in the first octave. Awkward. To make the altered scale sit properly over a dominant seventh, you need to reorder the notes:

1 b4(3) b5 b7 b9 b13 1

This completely screws up the upper structure.

So, I tend use a Warne Marsh altered pattern that a natural 5 - over a 7 it would be a straight 7 with a majmin7 a half step up in the second octave. This is not in fact the altered scale per se, probably some scale boffin would say what it is. I don't really care because that isn't how I am constructing it:

1 3 5 7 b9 b11 (or 3) b13

(It is in fact a 6 note scale as the 3 is repeated)

Quite often I will abuse this cheesy triad pair lick. Again a natural 5:

1 3 5 b5 b7 b2 1 3 5 ad nauseum

I would gleefully use these patterns on a G7alt.

So I don't think it matters too much.... But I would tend to alter the 5th, or leave it out in my comping...

It depends on the function of the chord too. Most of the time in harmonic jazz, the dominant altered chord is getting from A to B via some voice leading. For example:

Dm7 G7#5 C6

Here the chord symbols are strong suggesting D-D#-E in the melody/top line.

In this case, I would soloing I would tend to use a couple of chromatic notes to lead the harmony from a Dm7 to a C and be pretty simple about it. If I was soloing on the Dm7 and wanted to get a more interesting sound before resolving to the C, I would freely flat as few or as many of the notes in the Dm7 chord as I liked, to lead my line into the Cmaj tonality.

If you flat everything in a Dm7 apart from the third, you get an altered scale tonality (or a tritone sub if you prefer...):

D F A C
Db F Ab (B)
C E G B

Same for D9:

D F A C E
Db F Ab Cb (B) Eb
C E G B D

When comping, I would keep it simple unless I felt I had a good handle on what the soloist was likely to do next. In general, spicy chords like 7b13, 7#9 etc, are best played in the gaps between a soloist's phrases, not during them.

In more contemporary music, you may have an isolated altered dominant that is just hanging around. In this case you are actually pretty free in what you can do to this chord. It's not so cut and dried. You can use the altered scale sound, but you also free to use other ideas.

TL;DR doesn't matter too much where the 5 is at. The altered scale is a bit 'funny' anyway.

[christianm77]

Thanks. I never thought of that. FWIW, it leads me to realize that one can start on the b7 and play a half diminished 7. For example, for G7alt, play F half dim 7. I don't know how well that would work.

I think it works great. I use this approach a lot:

Over Dm7 G7 C

Play Fmaj7 --> Fm7b5-->C

Suggesting

D Dorian --> G Altered --> C major (for you Chord Scale cats)

You have some other fruity options too, often just by lowering one or two notes in the F maj7..

Over Dm G7 C I also like:

Fmaj7 --> Fminmaj7 --> C

Very common in late 30s/40s stuff, this... Basically we have a sort of C harmonic major/C major 6-dim. I tend to think of it as a melodic minor/C mixo b6 (Bb over G7 is fine) - Warne Marsh's second dominant scale as the Bb-Ab-G cadence is very common in bop. I just like the sound, TBH, we can rationalise in various ways.

Fmaj7 --> F7 --> C which suggests a sort of Mixo b6 or even a whole vibe, perhaps, but I tend to think of it as a bluesy move back to I. The G/F7 sound gives us a G7#5 tonality - G B F (notice I am missing out 5) F A C Eb (D#) so, in total, G11+5. We might want to lower or raise the C, but TBH I don't normally bother.

Fmaj7 --> Fo7 --> C

Pretty old school. This gives us either a classic Harmonic Major/Major 6-dim cadence or - a diminished scale sound on the second chord.

Fmaj7 --> E/F --> C

Same as above. Super fruity.

You have many other options. I am obsessed with the b7 sub...

[HighSpeedSpoon]

Thanks. It seemed like it should work because the two chords are inversions of each other, like Cm6 and A half dim 7. I wasn't sure what the voicing would be like or how hard it is to grab this or that chord.

[Reg]

With respect to the last 50 or 60 years... Altered is as Christian posted above... usually derived fro the 7th degree of Melodic Minor. Or the Sub of the IV7 dominant chord from Melodic Min. And we simple respell the -7b5 chord to be Dom7th with the b11 becoming the 3rd, plus b9 and #9 and b13.

For older standards which generally think of Minor as Natural Min. And use Harmonic Minor as source for creating function... the V7 chord... there is actually a natural 5th... right... The V7alt chord is 1 b9 3 11 5 b13 b7, phrygian Dminant.

But over the last 50 60 years... Dorian minor from the use of II V's and modal application etc...... anyway. Sometimes you'll add #9 to Phrygian Dominant or just pull the altered V7 chord from Melodic Minor.

Very jazz common practice is to imply that V7altered is Root, 3rd, b5 (or #11), b7, b9 and #9, b13 from MM.

And in the last 30 years... with modal interchange becoming common practice... the use of nat min. , Dorian more... anyway there are many organized methods for organization behind V7 chords and the choice of chord tones and extensions. But for those whom think about it... the melodic minor organization still seems to be common practice, at least at the basic reference for Altered.

[orri]

I mean... do all these alterations share a similar sound? or do they perform the same function (to get the melodic minor sound? ) ? This is what I'm not understanding.

I think this question is best answered by assigning you some homework:


1. find a song with an alt chord.
2. try all 4 possible combinations: b5b9, b5#9, #5b9, #5#9 (it's enough to play a smaller part of the song)
3. compare the difference of how they sound.



optional steps:
- Try also voicings without a fifth, and either #9 or b9
- Try voicings with without a ninth, and with either b5 or #5 (edit: I by mistake wrote here "without a fifth" again when I meant "ninth")
- try voicings with only root, 3rd and 7th.

more optional step.
- Find a song with a domininant chord with specified alterations (for example b5b9) and try to use a different alteration.
How to you think that sounded?

[NSJ]

I think this question is best answered by assigning you some homework:


1. find a song with an alt chord.
2. try all 4 possible combinations: b5b9, b5#9, #5b9, #5#9 (it's enough to play a smaller part of the song)
3. compare the difference of how they sound.



optional steps:
- Try also voicings without a fifth, and either #9 or b9
- Try voicings with without a fifth and with either b5 or #5
- try voicings with only root, 3rd and 7th.

more optional step.
- Find a song with a domininant chord with specified alterations (for example b5b9) and try to use a different alteration.
How to you think that sounded?

I tried this on the top 4 strings with strings 3 and 4 providing the Guide tones (b3 and b7, forming a tritone interval ) and strings 1 and 2 used for the 9th and 5th variations.

Since you can go 3 to b7 OR 7 to b3, there are at least two possibilities to explore on the neck .

I still need to internalize this properly .

[nick1994]

Of course, it might seem a little pedantic, but I think it's actually quite important that the #5 is NOT part of the altered scale - the b13 is a flat 13 (or 6) not a 5. The 5 in the altered scale is flat...

Altered
1 b2 b3 b4 (3) b5 b6 b7

yeah this is right to me as well. locrian b4 seems more of an appropriate name.

[christianm77]

Made a mistake in my post - I said:

1 b4(3) b5 b7 b9 b13 1

I should have written:

1 b4(3) b5 b7 b9 b10 b13 1

The b10 is usually thought of as #9 and the b4 as a 3, as Reg points out.

1 3 b5 b7 b9 #9 b13 type of thing

Jazz musicians have no respect for enharmony haha. But it's interesting to me that the minmaj7 a half step up thing doesn't actually drop out of the structure of the of the altered scale as we tend to understand it.

It's not like the major modes where you have a C major 7 and drop a D7 (or Dmaj7 if you are feeling very naughty) over the top as the upper structure and everyone's cool.

Anyway, most people couldn't care less about that haha. It works so *shrugs*

[PMB]

I always took it to mean there was a#5 in there somewhere. I say that because the b5 shows up in diatonic triads. I also used to do some music copy work back when you had to write out charts by hand, and I know the copyist shorthand for the jazz chords.

If I just wrote "alt" I mean there's a #5 in there and it's getting late and I just want to get on with it

#5(b6/b13) is also the only thing that distinguishes the altered scale from its parallel diminished half/whole.