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  1. #1
    What is the best book to create more chord movement in jazz standards?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Ken, I really like Alan Kingstone's book on the Barry Harris method for guitar.

  4. #3
    I have it but I don't think it really gives good examples on how to use it over standards.
    Ken

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    I have it but I don't think it really gives good examples on how to use it over standards.
    Ken

    I used to feel that way about the book, but then picked up same thing from hearing a piano player talk about it and wrote it out myself and the whole concept fell into place and just a matter of woodsheding it. I recently pull out Alan's book and now I can see the info was there.

    I've been away from this site for awhile and what I learned was to stop looking for books and such. You read books about the great players and how they learned no one just gave them example, they were taught concept and left to figure things out on their own. I've been in the mode while I've been gone and learned the process of finding the answer is the real teacher. The piano player explained it a bit different than the Allen's Barry Harris, but after putting in the seat time and seeing what's going on the answer is the same. I fact I think I learned more getting it from a piano player because I had to workout all the guitar side on my own. As Budda said.... The journey is the reward.

  6. #5

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    If I may seek a clarification, what exactly do you mean by "creating chord movement to use on standards"?

    I do transcriptions quite regularly and have a Sibelius library of nearly a hundred standards. Classically trained from the age of twelve or so, I have a good foundation not only in notation but also familiarity with classical and jazz guitar and styles across the centuries. I quote my background only to suggest a good foundation in traditional harmony, which is not terribly different from what happens in most jazz music. I will refer to a chord melody style arrangement, realizing of course that if you are playing in a band, the bass player handles the bass line and the rest of the band the harmony and melody line.

    The goal of creating chord movement needs some sort of definition. In terms of classical music and even jazz, it is voice leading that creates movement and harmony in music. Remember that the critical elements of the voices in chord melody style playing are the bass line, the melody, and the inner voices reflected in the harmony. A deep knowledge of chord construction is fundamental but easy. Chords are constructed in thirds, sometimes in fourths (quartal harmony), plus various "colors" - ninths, elevenths, thirteenths. Major, minor, minor seventh, diminished - these all determine the quality of individual chords. So it is very easy to learn fundamental chords "to create movement" in the standards, but I would suggest Joe Pass' approach to jazz chords and he has a method book on this .

    But what creates the "movement" in the chords in the progression in a standard? Start with the basic elements - bass and melody, the latter usually being played in a chord melody arrangement on the upper strings. Concrete example - a song like Stardust in the key of E. The melody and harmony begin with a tension and a resolution - "And / now the purple dusk of / twilight time - / - steals cross the meadows of my / heart..." . In the first measure on the pick up beat the chord is a B7 or an Ebdim7, then E. An A7b5 follows, then G#7 and then C#9. The rudiments of the bass line are the root of the chord. The melody begins with the F# in first position or alternatively on the B string with the Ebdim7 fingered at the fifth fret. Where you choose to play the melody over the bass helps determine the movement of those two lines. The inner harmony and movement result from other characteristics of the chord - the third, fourth, fifth, sixth,...etc.

    The melody is what it is - at least if you are reproducing the classic melody. The bass is what it is. The movement is the combination of the voice leading of those lines plus the inner voices of the harmony. Essentially it is all about creating tension and resolution. That is where the art and technical facility come into play. Note that the "colors" help to define the architecture of the voice leading and may not always themselves be the melody notes.

    Beyond that and taking into account the importance of tone and rhythm elements, that is what determines in my view the movement. It is the interplay of the voices. Pardon me if this post sounds too rudimentary, but I'm not sure what else one can say about chord movement.
    Last edited by targuit; 11-10-2015 at 06:31 PM.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    I have it but I don't think it really gives good examples on how to use it over standards.
    Ken

    Dont give up on old Barry yet, his stuff is exactly what you're looking for.

    also quartal Harmony through the scale works really well.


    P.s. A little Barry hint

    dm7 = F6 + e dim

    g7 = Abm6 (I prefer to think f half dim, or b7 half dim) + g dim

    Cmaj7 = C6 + b dim


    start on dm7/f6..... Then move up through the inversions, f6/e dim/f6/e dim/f6

    then play Abm6 as the g7, resolve to C.


    good luck!!!

  8. #7

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    the way that barry harris' picture of standard-harmony interlocks with/fits into/maps onto/supervenes on top of/breaks open standard standard-harmony is a very special and fine thing.

    maj and min become aspects of one sound (Bbmaj and Gmin (in Bb) are one sound; Ebmaj and Cm7 are one sound (in Bb); Bbmaj and Dm7 are one sound (in Bb)

    Dom7 and AltDom7 are (in a crucial sense) the same sound (just placed on different roots in the tonality). that sound is the min6 sound.

    so its all about the difference between the min7th sound (Gm7 in Bb) and the min 6th sound (Cm6 in Bb) (for goodness sake!) - or the maj 6 sound (Bbmaj6 in Bb) and the min 6th sound (Cm6 in Bb) if you prefer (this is probably a better way to think of it).

    these two sounds include all half diminished sounds - dom 7 b5 sounds - other alt dom sounds - maj 7 # 11 sounds.



    so l V l (Bbmaj7 / F7/ Bbmaj7....) - could be

    Gm7 - Gbm6 - Bbmaj6

    Dm7- Ebm6 - Bbmaj6

    Ebmaj7 # 11 - Ebm6 - Dm7

    etc.

    Both Bbmaj6 and Cm6 (in Bb) consist in a harmonized scale formed by building triads off an 8 note scale (Bb maj with added note between 5 and 6; Cm6 with added note between 5 and 6). this 'chord scale' alternates between inversions of Bb6 or Cm6 and a single diminshed passing chord. the moment you hear this 'scale' you should appreciate how fundamental it is.

    and it generates - or makes room for at least - endless forward motion...
    Last edited by Groyniad; 11-10-2015 at 06:40 PM.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove
    Dont give up on old Barry yet, his stuff is exactly what you're looking for.
    That's one of the things I'm thinking about starting on when the New Year rolls around. I've solved my picking problem, so I'm ending this year ironing the kinks of things that once snagged me and learning some tunes / solos. I'm putting myself into the position to absorb a method like this now. (He thinks...)

  10. #9
    Can some make a video of how they would use the Barry Harris Concept on a well known standard, I just don'y see it yet...I know you can use the diminished in between chords but still need some help.
    Thx
    Ken

  11. #10
    Watch Jack Wilkins play chords, he never isn't moving

  12. #11

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    Harmonic Mechanisms by Van Eps is the complete guitar answer. For the complete musical answer, listen to Nelson Riddle, especially the Songbook series with Ella, or even the Linda Ronstadt CDs.

  13. #12
    Wasn't Van Eps a 7 string guitarist?
    Ken

  14. #13

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    Voice Leading for Guitar, John Thomas. Berklee Press.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    Voice Leading for Guitar, John Thomas. Berklee Press.
    and here is a link to Chapter 1:

    Voice Leading For Guitar - guitar chords

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    I used to feel that way about the book, but then picked up same thing from hearing a piano player talk about it and wrote it out myself and the whole concept fell into place and just a matter of woodsheding it. I recently pull out Alan's book and now I can see the info was there.

    I've been away from this site for awhile and what I learned was to stop looking for books and such. You read books about the great players and how they learned no one just gave them example, they were taught concept and left to figure things out on their own. I've been in the mode while I've been gone and learned the process of finding the answer is the real teacher. The piano player explained it a bit different than the Allen's Barry Harris, but after putting in the seat time and seeing what's going on the answer is the same. I fact I think I learned more getting it from a piano player because I had to workout all the guitar side on my own. As Budda said.... The journey is the reward.
    This is what I've been saying all along. Folks think that wisdom is secreted in just the right tomes or just the right book. But the work is the same. In fact it puts it off if you think it exists somewhere else. You gotta put in the work. It's right there. Nothing can take the place of the work and in the work the answers will pop out.

    Now yes, there are methods and specific approaches. But theses approaches have been done by people who made their own way. They weren't lazy. They studied. But they also grokked it. They applied it.

    I haven't bought a method book in years. Well I did recently buy two books on delta blues. But that might be different. Maybe. I mean if you want or need an introduction to get you started. Yeah. That's what I do. Many years ago I bought a Howard Roberts book on chord melody. I glanced through it and it got me started. Never opened it again. Yet you know, had I really studied it I'd undoubtedly have learned a lot more. But it felt like I got the concept. Then I was gone.

    But you need what you need. I just have always seen students are so often afraid of jumping. They need method books that gather dust. Just do it. Figure it out. Like Nike. Just Do It.

  17. #16

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    I agree with the advice here about studying , grokking, working , going to camps and workshops and lessons and jams and one day a light came on in my mind and all that information started to come together and made sense.

    So finally when I read the post a few above this with what chord equals what combo of two other chords - I can actually follow what that means. I still have to get out my scale reference sheet to "spell out the notes " but I know what I am looking for now, and why.

    You will, maybe have, reached a point of knowing you want to know more. I think this is the big clue to go get the basics in hand.

    Chord diagrams and tab only go so far. Nothing wrong with never going pat them but if you've got. Yearning for learning -

    Fretboard logic book 3 is my favorite , in combi nation with assorted Jamey aebersold's publications.

    Good luck !

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Wasn't Van Eps a 7 string guitarist?
    Ken
    Before he took up seven string, he was considered the top six string player of his time. The Harmonic Mechanisms and GVE Guitar Method are written for six strings.

    The last recorded example in Kingstone's Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar is Alan playing Like Someone in Love and has a measure by measure and, in some instances, a beat by beat analysis.

    I'd also recommend, in addition to the Nelson Riddle suggestion upstream, that you start listening to piano players.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    I just don'y see it yet...I know you can use the diminished in between chords but still need some help.
    Thx
    Ken

    You're close keep looking better yet write it out, take the scale BH talks about the Maj6 Diminished also called the Bebop Major scale now use traditional harmony approach of using every other note to harmonize the scale. Adding that one extra note changes everything. Then study the chords it creates and keep thinking "the cycle", "the cycle". "the cycle", you'll see it's not just shoving diminished chords in.


    The old masters talked about "The Cycle" all the time discovering why is key.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Can some make a video of how they would use the Barry Harris Concept on a well known standard, I just don'y see it yet...I know you can use the diminished in between chords but still need some help.
    Thx
    Ken

    Before running the concepts through a whole standard, try just getting a couple nice ii v I moves in your ears/under your fingers. Even just using a couple of the subs to get it into your ear will be very helpful.

    Btw, I make no claims to be an expert on his system. However I'm working on it. What was stated by other, holds true for this as well. I had to study it, make sense of it to myself, come up with some voicings, move them through ii v's, etc. The reason I mention it is that once you can hear it, it makes a lot of sense, and delivers exactly what you're looking for.

    Its a great system, but ultimately just another tool in the toolbox, albeit a very powerful one. I would also look around this site for a lesson posted on quartal harmony. Another useful tool that translates to the guitar excellently.

  21. #20
    Thanks guys, I'll check the videos tonight when I get home from work.
    Ken

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Harmonic Mechanisms by Van Eps is the complete guitar answer. For the complete musical answer, listen to Nelson Riddle, especially the Songbook series with Ella, or even the Linda Ronstadt CDs.
    Not forgetting his stellar albums with Frank Sinatra on Capitol

  23. #22

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    the entire Alan Kingstone book is about applying the material to chord progressions found in standards

    i don't know what else you want short of someone spoon feeding it to you

  24. #23
    Show me one example in that book that shows you how to apply it to a standard!!!
    That's why that book doesn't sell

  25. #24
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by gtrplrfla
    Not forgetting his stellar albums with Frank Sinatra on Capitol
    Books can help a lot, but you can't go wrong listening to Capitol.

    "The creative mind plays with the objects it loves." (C G Jung)

  26. #25
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Show me one example in that book that shows you how to apply it to a standard!!!
    That's why that book doesn't sell
    The book does require some prior knowledge.

    There aren't many progressions in standards, yet The Greats show what beauty can be created from so few resources.

    I find this book helps with that creative process - arranging, improvising, chords (and single lines). It presents useful information clearly and concisely.
    Last edited by destinytot; 11-11-2015 at 12:26 PM. Reason: addition

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Show me one example in that book that shows you how to apply it to a standard!!!
    That's why that book doesn't sell
    he took a standard, wrote out an an entire arrangement, and went through it measure by measure explaining what he was doing. if that's not "applying it to a standard," then i don't know what more you could possibly want

    and that was after he spent the entire goddamn book saying "use this over a minor7 chord, use this for an altered dominant..." you seriously can't figure out how to apply that to standards?

    AND Alan Kingstone is a regular on this forum and is very generous answering questions. it's pretty much all spelled out for you, and if you haven't figured it out after four years....

    Amazon.com: guitarplayer007's review of The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar

    ...the only thing i can think of at this point is that you're just being willfully obtuse.

    people on this forum are hilarious sometimes.

    "Oh, Ted Greene is too much stuff, it's not musical..."

    "Oh, I don't know what to do with this Slonimsky book, some guy took the time to write out every single possible combination of notes, what am I EVER going to do with that?"

    "Oh, I just want an easy way to play jazz, is that too much?"

    but then post something like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Watch Jack Wilkins play chords, he never isn't moving
    Jack Wilkins is a great player, he knows his shit, and he worked really hard to get it together. if you want to sound like him, it's going to take some actual work. it's not going to be easy, and it's not going to be found in one book

    there are plenty of resources out there for people interested in advanced harmony on a guitar: Ted Greene, Mick Goodrick, Sid Jacobs, Steve Herberman, even the Van Eps and Chuck Wayne stuff would take you pretty far. and the Barry Harris stuff fits nicely with all that

    but it can't be both easy and hard. if being great were easy, everyone would be great. and part of getting to that level is learning how to sit down and figure things out even if nobody is there to give you the answer

  28. #27
    Duh

  29. #28
    Its a waste of paper

  30. #29

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    It's always funny when people say "the greats didn't use... [books, computers, slow downers, etc.], as if that was by choice.

  31. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    It's always funny when people say "the greats didn't use... [books, computers, slow downers, etc.], as if that was by choice.


    True

  32. #31

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    The presents a concept and even has the voicings you just need to sit and experiment using it. If there an example you'd learn it, then struggle trying to apply that example to other tunes, but if you sit and experiment till the light bulb clicks on in your head then you know how to apply it to anything (even single line.) It's the process that teaches, not the answer.

    Like I heard an great sax player say recently. Learning Jazz is like going out and asking five people directions to a club. You'll get five different ways to get to the same place, then you'll probably discover another when you go.

  33. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    The presents a concept and even has the voicings you just need to sit and experiment using it. If there an example you'd learn it, then struggle trying to apply that example to other tunes, but if you sit and experiment till the light bulb clicks on in your head then you know how to apply it to anything (even single line.) It's the process that teaches, not the answer.

    Like I heard an great sax player say recently. Learning Jazz is like going out and asking five people directions to a club. You'll get five different ways to get to the same place, then you'll probably discover another when you go.
    Thx Docbop

    Still would like to see someone actually use these techniques on a Standard like My Romance or something similar

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Thx Docbop

    Still would like to see someone actually use these techniques on a Standard like My Romance or something similar
    Once you play with it awhile and get the sound in your ear, then you start hearing it all over. Hint play a bunch of V to I's, then listen to some people comp on standards, play some more V - I's now play the BH stuff. Bigger hint, remember the old rule in Jazz you can alway preceed a chord by it's own V.

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    ...remember the old rule in Jazz you can alway preceed a chord by it's own V.
    ... and its corollary: you can precede that V by its iim7

  36. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    Once you play with it awhile and get the sound in your ear, then you start hearing it all over. Hint play a bunch of V to I's, then listen to some people comp on standards, play some more V - I's now play the BH stuff. Bigger hint, remember the old rule in Jazz you can alway preceed a chord by it's own V.

    Thx Docbop

  37. #36
    Very nice Destinytot

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by jasaco
    ... and its corollary: you can precede that V by its iim7

    Yup, sub-dominant to dominant. That's another thing I'm picking of from the stuff I've been checking out, they looked at chords by function. Not all the numbering each chord from diatonic harmony, but simply which function as tonic, which sub-dominant, and which dominant. Thinking about it that was how ear training taught about hear chord by the pull of them or if they sounded at rest. It all come back to understanding what the ear hears and what the ear expects.

    Update: I forgot to mention iim7 to V is "the cycle" again.
    Another thing I that didn't hit me at first these guys always talking about "the cycle" is chord families don't matter to them, it's all about the root movement. Another old Jazz idiom of you can always turn a minor 7 into a dominant 7. Jazz players love their dominants because they can take so many liberties with them.
    Last edited by docbop; 11-12-2015 at 02:27 PM.

  39. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Its a waste of paper
    I can't understand this, in response to all of the actual input you've been given in this thread. Almost like you have some personal beef or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    If there an example you'd learn it, then struggle trying to apply that example to other tunes, but if you sit and experiment till the light bulb clicks on in your head then you know how to apply it to anything (even single line.) It's the process that teaches, not the answer.
    Absolutely this. I think the feeling that more examples would help is natural but somewhat misguided. When I was first learning out of some of those books with all of the examples, it was something like: read concept.....play example....ok,.now what?

    Then, one day, while playing through a tune, a Mickey baker intro line just came out "by accident". I was kind of blown away. I just "heard it" after recently having played it so many times. That "accident"changed the way I approached practicing things.

    Now, I try to make those things happen on purpose by:

    1. Applying everything to real tunes pretty quickly.
    2. Practicing fewer things at once. (I think everyone's different in this regard, but I'm a "one thing at a time plus tunes" guy).
    3. Let go of the idea of trying to discover a magical thought process for playing. Thought processes are for PRACTICING (My "accident" came from pre-hearing something I knew how to play.)

    The Barry Harris stuff is great. Put the time in on a couple of simple ideas until you don't have to "think" and try to purposefully integrate it into real music.

    William Leavitt's rhythm studies (or whatever they're called) in the modern method books are very solid as well. All the cesh lines are covered and altered moving voices with 5th's/9'th's etc ad well.

    You have to apply them to tunes yourself in most all of these books though.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-13-2015 at 07:40 AM.

  40. #39
    Thanks Matt,

    Rick Stone the Jazz Guitarist from NY actually has better examples of the Barry Harris thought process on his website then are in Alan Kingstone's book. Wish there were more like that to build on.

  41. #40
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Very nice Destinytot
    Thank you - it's kind of you to say so.

    I'd like to emphasise that I find Alan Kingstone's book helps with improvising (arranging/preparing, too); and I think improvising chord movement is a bigger and more beautiful deal.

  42. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Thank you - it's kind of you to say so.

    I'd like to emphasise that I find Alan Kingstone's book helps with improvising (arranging/preparing, too); and I think improvising chord movement is a bigger and more beautiful deal.

    Yes that's why I need to figure still chord movement out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ken

  43. #42
    Ok so My Module 4 opened today, still working on stuff from Modules 2 and 3 ...lol
    2 hours a day is just not enough, need to up some how and do more on weekends. This course has many things that need to be internalized and it takes time for ears and muscle memory to get it....But I love it!
    Ken

  44. #43
    Thanks Destinytot...I really appreciate your help!!!!
    I'm at work currently and can't watch the video, but will watch it tonight!!!!
    Thx again
    Ken

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    Thanks Matt,

    Rick Stone the Jazz Guitarist from NY actually has better examples of the Barry Harris thought process on his website then are in Alan Kingstone's book. Wish there were more like that to build on.
    Here's some Rick Stone with Barry Harris, doing "Fried Pies"


  46. #45
    Thanks Mark!

  47. #46
    yes that would be great Destinytot!!!
    Ken

  48. #47

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    I'm not too familiar with the Barry Harris concept, but I stumbled upon this and it sounded like it could be relevant to this thread:


  49. #48
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
    yes that would be great Destinytot!!!
    Ken
    Which standard?

  50. #49

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    For what it's worth I've been asking the same question as the original poster. I am not a good player but I'm looking to improve and want to get more movement into my playing. I can play through standards but by using pretty vanilla chords and without any interesting movement. I was in a band for a short while and this taught me how much more I needed to learn. I bought Roni Ben Hur's DVD and found it very helpful. It introduces much of Barry Harris' concept. However for me rather than the maj and minor 6th diminished scales, I am more comfortable with minor 7 and minor 7 flat 5 scales which are exactly the same thing. For example c maj6 = am7 and cm6 = am7b5. Same with the chords, and how just a small set of chords can be used for so many different applications or substitutions. I may well change my opinion as I learn more and improve. I'm transcribing the chord solo to "Gone with the wind" by Wes Montgomery and there aree loads of the concepts Roni Ben Hur talks about in there. Learning to hear the chords is really hard work, but with knowledge of the chord progression, and modern equipment that allows one to play the same chord over and over until one can hear all the notes helps. I don't know if I am on the right track but the more I try the more I believe that familiarity and ear training are the most important things, and the most progress I have ever made is through transcribing, so I would say try and transcribe your favourite comping or chord solo pieces, you probably already have enough head knowledge to make progress.

  51. #50

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    I think your observation is dead on as regards the minor sixth concept. I find it much simpler to think in terms of flat fifths and diminished chords along with using my ears. But you don't get to spend mucho denaro on the books and methods and DVDs.

    In my heart I think - much ado about nothing - but I can't say that aloud....OOOPS!