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Originally Posted by targuit
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12-12-2015 10:18 AM
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I would love to see a jazz guitar trio of Martin Taylor, Andreas Oberg and Targuit.
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Graham - I consider that excerpt from my post above to be a point of fact. If you already know functional harmony and play the standards as written and interpret them, do you need to "reinvent the wheel"? Go ask Mike so we can have the answer....
Actually, if you read my comment carefully (taken out of context, of course), you will comprehend that my comment does not refer to the author or to his book, but rather to those who spend so much of their time trying to find THE METHOD that will make them the creative guitarists they yearn to become.
The real answer is both simple and complicated. You need to learn to hear it. Once you do, it becomes a lot like telling Lance Armstrong to go read up on how to ride a bike....Last edited by targuit; 12-12-2015 at 10:32 AM.
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Originally Posted by plasticpigeon
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Just curious, Graham. If you watched that interview of Martin Taylor that I posted in which he speaks so openly and honestly about his own process, whom do you think Martin would agree with about "mental masturbation" in terms of searching endlessly to justify what he and I "hear" - you or me?
Btw. The park I was referring to is Hyde Park - Speaker's Corner.
"Lord Justice Sedley, in his decision regarding Redmond-Bate v Director of Public Prosecutions (1999), described Speakers' Corner as demonstrating "the tolerance which is both extended by the law to opinion of every kind and expected by the law in the conduct of those who disagree, even strongly, with what they hear." The ruling famously established in English case law that freedom of speech could not be limited to the inoffensive but extended also to "the irritating, the contentious, the eccentric, the heretical, the unwelcome, and the provocative, as long as such speech did not tend to provoke violence", and that the right to free speech accorded by Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights also accorded the right to be offensive. Prior to the ruling, prohibited speech at Speakers' Corner included obscenity, blasphemy, insulting the queen, or inciting a breach of the peace.[5][6]" Wikipedia
Could be worse - I could be insulting the Queen....
"Last edited by targuit; 12-12-2015 at 11:07 AM.
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Originally Posted by targuit
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Then it is a worthwhile endeavor for you, Graham. More power to you.
Are you talking about a different approach to harmony that will change how you interpret a standard like All the Things You Are or how you think about improvising melody lines?
As I was playing last night just noodling solo on a variety of tunes, I was struck by a thought that I think is interesting. "Follow the melody, as the harmony notes will be somewhere close by." I kind of like that.Last edited by targuit; 12-12-2015 at 11:18 AM.
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12-12-2015, 11:13 AM #408destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by targuit
I wanted to leave nationality out of it, but I know where my allegiances lie (my idea of ethical in the Western world is Rastafari, but I'm not going there).
One thing I will say about nationality and music, in this sadly racialized - and radicalised - world, is that the Musician is honoured everywhere.
But your right about the rectitude. As the son of German (Westphalian) mother and a Jamaican father, that is a trait which being British exacerbates.
I could add that I'm perhaps advantaged by my heritage, that until about thirty-five years ago I knew where to locate certain herbs, which - unlike most Brits - my German side would allow me to handcraft and roll in a manner that combined great sculptural artistry with measurably-superior technical precision. Perhaps that's what's under my rickety chair?
However, I'm not here to proselytize. I'm hear to learn - and I want a low-anxiety environment in which to do so. Sorry, but I think it's you that's been engaged in constructive silencing of other views.
But I'm taking you off my ignore list. I'll give my reasons ('publicly').
Firstly, I don't think you have any negative intentions. Secondly, I don't feel vulnerable in the presence of kind people on the forum. Thirdly, I do think you need help - and I think you know it - and I believe that 'if you're not helping you're hurting'. The best way to help is to support you and wish you well.
Un abbraccio, Jay.
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Peace and love, Mike!
You may not realize this, but when you said you put me on "ignore", I felt quite bad. I enjoy your reflections and music. Anyway, those of us with a streak of ADHD sometimes speak out impetuously. I mean no harm. If I were going to buy a harmony text for jazz, I would strongly consider Alan's book. I am actually quite curious. Unfortunately, also too poor these days...
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12-12-2015, 11:25 AM #410destinytot GuestOriginally Posted by targuit
All together now... two, three, kick, turn...two, three, kick, turn...
"Springtime for Hitler and Germany
Come on Germans, go into your dance."
Apologies to OP.
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Originally Posted by targuit
It's really just finding more ways to put chords together in a sequence and hopefully getting a nice harmonic flow if that makes sense. Not really about improvising single note lines.
Let's keep it constructive like this guys - so much better!
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Originally Posted by destinytotOriginally Posted by destinytotOriginally Posted by destinytot
Honestly, modal interchange makes zero sense on paper, just talking about it theoretically, and trying to slog through it, as a beginner, using theories. You have to see a real player doing it. I used to try to include altered chords or altered runs over dominants and just thought they sounded horrible. That's because they did. You can't play this stuff without regard to time "targets" and harmonic "targets". Usually Reg is referencing basic harmony and then, with the basic reference established, branching out. So, it's not just an arbitrary "whatever" thrown in.
Most of what he's doing (in showing basic comping) through standards gives the illusion of sounding very "inside" or diatonic, simple to the listener. That's because he's using the outside stuff to imply basic harmony. The outside stuff is on the weak beat, side of the beat, or harmonic rhythm. Again, none of this makes sense on paper or if you don't know what is going on with the harmonic rhythm. You could "lean" on the outside stuff more or less if that's the sound you want, but it's a choice. And honestly, it's more of a rhythmic choice than a harmonic one - in the beginning especially.
I think we have to stop reading so much about the stuff theoretically, and watch the videos. Go to youtube and watch a video on accessing youtube's playback speed feature, and slow them down. Some Reg stuff may go by fast, but there's a lot going on. At the same time, the basics are very doable and the parts are interchangeable. Later you can use the same ideas to simply reference different tonal centers etc., achieving new palettes of sounds. This is an area in which I have miles to go as well, but the answer is there in the videos if we really want it.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-12-2015 at 11:55 AM.
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Hey Destiny... yea Modal Interchange, is basic harmonic tool for performing Jazz. (other styles of music also)
So yea just like Barry N. said... your borrowing, like the classical term, chords from parallel modes, or scales. The basic is going from Cmaj to Cmin...or parallel Minor. Modal interchange... instead of the diatonic chords built from each scale degree of Cmaj.
Cmaj7 D-7.....E-7......Fmaj7 G7... A-7..... B-7b5... you have access to... from organization to use.
C-7.....D-7b5 Ebmaj7 F-7.... G-7 Abmaj7 Bb7 ... which is parallel Min. or C aeolian (VI-)
So I could also use Dorian or whatever mode I choose. There is organization behind... the example above use the relative minor relationship as choice for modal interchange choice... it's very common and our ears have already been trained to hear and except... Maj/Min function harmony. The diatonic note organization and pattern of notes is the same just starting on a different degree and Aeolian or natural Min works within basic Functional Harmony...
MEANING THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE NOTES... AND WHICH NOTES CREATE THOSE RELATIONSHIP.... IS ALREADY ESTABLISHED.
The tonic, subdominant and dominant functions are already established and accepted.
So when you use other modes you also need organization... which can just be your ears etc... but then you generally run into conflicts with other ears. So generally you need to go through the rest of the modes and establish organizational relationships based on using either Tonal or Modal harmonic theory.
I'm not going to explain in one post.... anyway the next step is to be able to also create other relationships, using subs, chord patterns, Blue notes, any melodic or harmonic technique you already use ... all your basic comping techniques and methods.... in relationship to the new Modal Interchange chords.
Organizing the new relationships from modal Interchanges can be based on the original base or reference, Cmaj and standard functional harmony, or you can use different organization to create function or chord movement based on different Modal principles from the new mode. And then on to the next levels of organization of relationships...
And basically most or all of these concepts are going on all the time... and it's our job to use them musically, right.
You generally don't get into modal harmony until you get functional harmony, it's hard to count to 10 without knowing the numbers, or you don't change from base 10 to base 13 when counting until you learn how to count.
It's like I was saying earlier... your not going to learn how to comp from throwing more material into your repertoire.
Hey 55bar please don't take what I'm say personally... it's all good. So the Dix examples, I really always dig his playing, he's very loose and free... like me. But his comping example while very cool... changes the harmonic rhythm a lot. It's not like he's repeating a functional pattern... the basic function reference is changing, somewhat like flipping around a montuno or turning the beat around rhythmically... or you need to just call the harmonic phrase or chord pattern... One tonal reference somewhat like a pedal or ostinato.
I guess you need to be aware of what type of approach your using to create motion. when you just playing or practicing solo... it all works. Very different from playing in a ensemble setting.
When I was young... I use to record melodies and practice comping behind... like using backing tracts except work on your comping improve. You'll hear how different techniques work. You'll definitely hear how everything doesn't need to line up vertically... tonal references have memory and anticipation.
Anything works... but when randomly and not spatially organized...without FORM If you don't hear it yet, you will eventually.Last edited by Reg; 12-12-2015 at 12:52 PM.
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Hey Matt... thanks and yes... if you have rhythmic organization, almost anything works. But eventually you'll also get harmonic organization together and it will make music even more natural...
It's close to... when I first started playing gigs... back in the stone age... I realized and had beat into me... get the rhythms right first... then the important targets... and eventually you'll be able to sight read. I still perform with that approach...
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Originally Posted by Reg
I know people are firing lots of questions at you so feel free not to have to explain.
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Originally Posted by 55bar
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Originally Posted by NSJ
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Originally Posted by NSJ
The harmonic/melodic targets can be accented on different beats or parts of the beat. Additionally, you can form larger multi-measure patterns, like strong-weak, strong-weak or on-off, on-off (beats that is), or polyrhythmic patterns where the target is basically shifting but related to the original. I think he's referring to the players loose structure in terms of those accent patterns etc.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Thanks Navdeep... yea that's the basics... the next step which is more how I use the term... not just the spatial or physical location of the attack... but also the tonal reference... what function the chord is. Maybe harmonic functional rhythm would be better... but pretty accepted practice to use term Harmony to imply tonal reference as well as rhythmic attack when using term Harmonic Rhythm with Jazz. Eventually will get into more print etc...
Anyway... When your playing a tonal pattern... say Tonic to Dominant to Tonic to subdominant or whatever yous set up...
When you change the basic tonal pattern... that should also have organization.... when it's somewhat random the groove doesn't really lock. A groove can be two changes or 16 bars of changes. The better you rhythmically organize the tonal functional patterns... well it works better especially when performing live with other musicians. Most just seem to feel it, vocalist are always saying... wow tonight really felt good, we were on it. And yea you just say, yea great night.
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Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by Reg
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Wow Matt you actually get much of what I say... impressive, really. I'm not a very good teacher...at least anymore, don't have time.
That mention of rhythmically taking the next step of being able to play on or off the physical beat... really gets good. But you need to have perfect time first... when you have trouble just being in time at macro or micro levels... your just going to really screw time up when you try to start subdividing using feel that involves rock solid basic reference even though the actual physical time varies within the entire form. And then trying to use that technique with harmonic concepts...
You really need to separate all the details and develop them by themselves... practice the individual elements and skills of using them.
This it getting into different concepts of how to learn how to play Jazz... I'm from school of learning skills and then performing... whereas most teach from learning the tunes and pulling from them for the concepts... trial and error.
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Originally Posted by Reg
Originally Posted by Reg
Originally Posted by RegLast edited by matt.guitarteacher; 12-12-2015 at 03:22 PM.
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Yea... good discussion Matt... organization is an amazing tool, even if one just plays the same thing at the beginning and at the end... it can work, and all the organization is just that same thing at beginning and end.
Another organizational point... notes or melody and changes lining up vertically, rhythmically etc... you can change horizontal alignment just as you can change vertical alignment. Just as you use subs or modal interchange... it's very common to have melodic notes, melody or improv not be spatially in alignment with changes... generally there is some type of organization going in... pulling from something before, or something to come, or even deceptively implying something.
Generally when members talk about what has too be... it's from not being aware. Whats the difference between a beat being implied as compared to being played. Awareness or in performance generally skill levels. Nothing good or bad...
Example being... play a I VI II V or version of as Vid by Dix posted by 55bar... anyway what's the difference between that VI being a sub for the tonic or being a secondary V of II ... or when you play III-7b5 to VI7b13 to bVI13 to V7b13...
In C...... Cmaj7 to A-7 to D-7 to G7
.............C6/9 to A7b13 to D-9 to G7b13
.............E-7b5 to A7b13 to Ab13 to G7b13
So whats changing is the harmonic rhythm... the functional targets, you have primary and secondary tonal targets which become like rhythmic accents patterns.
So were comping, were not soloing, were trying to create interactive part for the soloist to create relationships and develop them etc... there are lots of possibilities. You always need to be able to adjust or change what you are playing, are thinking of playing etc... your not the main soloist... your improving, but the point of your improve is to back the soloist. anyway thanks and I'll try and post some more quick examples, and keep them simple.
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