Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

[SeanZ]

nice vocal too!

[SeanZ]

was referring to DestinyTot's vocal on I can't believe that you're in love with me!

[targuit]

Here is a masterful player with great tone that I discovered this morning. Check his playing out - tasteful, creative, great technique. Cliff is in Paris and hopefully safe after the terrorist attacks. Fabulous guitarist.

[targuit]

And this - what I would like to do as a duo.

[plasticpigeon]

Yes great vocals, and playing Destinytot, and Reg I look forward to your videos, I hope I can follow them.

[targuit]

And this - that is Paris in the background. Great playing, comping as well. This is Wave. But you have to listen to his version of Oleo - OMG!

[destinytot]

was referring to DestinyTot's vocal on I can't believe that you're in love with me!

Thanks for the kind comment. I was trying to illustrate how I use movement in a way that makes me feel comfortable in that particular style.

I'm singing against what I find to be a strong line which allows me to take a few liberties here and there (without going so far out of my comfort zone as to hurt the performance).

And I really like starting on a IV chord - I do Candy in the same key (but not in the same set).

I apply what I've learned from imitating João Gilberto's bossa nova to everything I sing and/or play; and, personally, I hear Chet Baker in João Gilberto. No gimmicks there.

Re. Chord Chemistry - unlike Alan Kingstone's book (which I prefer) - no prior knowledge is required. As soon as I read the informative initial pages (decades ago), Ted Greene's friendly style - which I find to be without condescension - won me over completely. I'm biased, and I'll always admire him. I would skip the references to begin with, and go straight to the 'fun' part: the progressions, which exemplify application of the shapes/grips with sounds that I find entirely to my liking. Horses for courses.

Re. movement and voices, I've taken to lowering the tuning of my nylon to match my singing voice. I want to add flute and cello to (I'll be making a start on Monday - thanks to Reg):

[christianm77]

Reg's concept actually sounds broadly similar to mine. I wanted to post a video of my concept such as it is but it ended up going on a bit for youtube. I'm certain I can cover it in under 10 minutes with one or two clear examples...

[targuit]

Post no.5 - Jay - "The goal of creating chord movement needs some sort of definition. In terms of classical music and even jazz, it is voice leading that creates movement and harmony in music. Remember that the critical elements of the voices in chord melody style playing are the bass line, the melody, and the inner voices reflected in the harmony. A deep knowledge of chord construction is fundamental but easy. Chords are constructed in thirds, sometimes in fourths (quartal harmony), plus various "colors" - ninths, elevenths, thirteenths. Major, minor, minor seventh, diminished - these all determine the quality of individual chords. So it is very easy to learn fundamental chords "to create movement" in the standards, but I would suggest Joe Pass' approach to jazz chords and he has a method book on this .

But what creates the "movement" in the chords in the progression in a standard? Start with the basic elements - bass and melody, the latter usually being played in a chord melody arrangement on the upper strings. Concrete example - a song like Stardust in the key of E. The melody and harmony begin with a tension and a resolution - "And / now the purple dusk of / twilight time - / - steals cross the meadows of my / heart..." . In the first measure on the pick up beat the chord is a B7 or an Ebdim7, then E. An A7b5 follows, then G#7 and then C#9. The rudiments of the bass line are the root of the chord. The melody begins with the F# in first position or alternatively on the B string with the Ebdim7 fingered at the fifth fret. Where you choose to play the melody over the bass helps determine the movement of those two lines. The inner harmony and movement result from other characteristics of the chord - the third, fourth, fifth, sixth,...etc.

The melody is what it is - at least if you are reproducing the classic melody. The bass is what it is. The movement is the combination of the voice leading of those lines plus the inner voices of the harmony. Essentially it is all about creating tension and resolution. That is where the art and technical facility come into play. Note that the "colors" help to define the architecture of the voice leading and may not always themselves be the melody notes. "


I think Kurt and I are thinking along some common paths. (Not equating the two of us. He is younger. ) I enjoyed that presentation - thanks to Mike! Kurt is quite articulate. I like how he points out the need first to get the progression and melody down cold. I would like to hear him or someone on this thread talk more specifically about the principles of substitutions. I tend to think or better said "hear" the interplay of lines as voice leading, which is less complicated. The part where developed his improvisations. Nicely done.

I haven't listened much to Kurt recently. Now I will.

[Toddep]

There is so much to learn in the video, more than a stack of books floor to ceiling could teach. It's like music school the real learning wasn't in the classroom it was in the open counseling hanging with a great like Joe Dorio and just listening to him talk and play. The other real teacher in music school is the performance room playing or jamming. To learn to play music you have to play a lot of music and learning tunes. You learn like Kurt was doing take one song and constantly evolve how you play it. I it was Hal Galper who said it better to know how to play ten song a hundred ways than to know a hundred tunes. The other subtle lesson in that video is look at Kurt's guitar. I think Kurt only started playing that guitar a couple years ago, but look at the how he's worn the finish off under his arm under his thumb, and up by neck when the goes for light strums at end of tune. Same with Jonathan Kreisberg's 175 is another you can see how much seat time he spends the finish worn off where his arm is on the body and I've seen pictures of back of neck and a lot finish worn off. Then the Mike Stern class I posted about I was impressed seeing on his neck there is only a few frets up at end of neck on low strings that have little wear. You can tell Stern did a lot of the scale voice leading exercise himself he talks about in the video. As one of the forum members says it's all about seat time and the old Latin quote "practice is the best teacher"

Where can I find the stern video?

[fathand]

Actually the chord movement is already there, maybe you're talking about chord substitution. The best books I've gone through for that kind of knowledge is Mickey Baker or Ronny Lee and no, I never totally completed them but I learned a ton. Even Warren Nunes put out a good book named Rhythm & Background chords. After you go through a jazz chord progression book you should be able to create movement the way you want. just my 2 cents.

Mel Bay Presents Jazz Guitar Method by Ronny Lee Volume II Jazz Chords and T | eBay

[plasticpigeon]

I saw Gilad Hekselman last night. He's a superb player and although not the bop style that I really love, his music is very beautiful. I asked him a question about comping and movement at a class before the gig and he said, just listen to the players you like and try and emulate them. He was really advocating imitation until you have the facility and imagination to sound like yourself. I think that is the problem. When people ask a great player about their approach, it is probably difficult to define beyond having put in a lot of work and being very familiar wit the material. Another guy local to me who plays amazing accompaniment and even great long improvised chord solos says he can do it because he arranged for a big band for years so know the sound of the chords and how to grab them on the fret board. He said he could only tell me what he was doing if he sat down and analysed it afterwards.

[guitarplayer007]

Actually the chord movement is already there, maybe you're talking about chord substitution. The best books I've gone through for that kind of knowledge is Mickey Baker or Ronny Lee and no, I never totally completed them but I learned a ton. Even Warren Nunes put out a good book named Rhythm & Background chords. After you go through a jazz chord progression book you should be able to create movement the way you want. just my 2 cents.

Mel Bay Presents Jazz Guitar Method by Ronny Lee Volume II Jazz Chords and T | eBay

Both subs and movement..for instance if you have a measure of EbMaj7..what can you do?
Ken

[guitarplayer007]

There is so much to learn in the video, more than a stack of books floor to ceiling could teach. It's like music school the real learning wasn't in the classroom it was in the open counseling hanging with a great like Joe Dorio and just listening to him talk and play. The other real teacher in music school is the performance room playing or jamming. To learn to play music you have to play a lot of music and learning tunes. You learn like Kurt was doing take one song and constantly evolve how you play it. I it was Hal Galper who said it better to know how to play ten song a hundred ways than to know a hundred tunes.

The other subtle lesson in that video is look at Kurt's guitar. I think Kurt only started playing that guitar a couple years ago, but look at the how he's worn the finish off under his arm under his thumb, and up by neck when the goes for light strums at end of tune. Same with Jonathan Kreisberg's 175 is another you can see how much seat time he spends the finish worn off where his arm is on the body and I've seen pictures of back of neck and a lot finish worn off. Then the Mike Stern class I posted about I was impressed seeing on his neck there is only a few frets up at end of neck on low strings that have little wear. You can tell Stern did a lot of the scale voice leading exercise himself he talks about in the video.

As one of the forum members says it's all about seat time and the old Latin quote "practice is the best teacher"

That's awesome how amazing he plays Body and Soul, so much movement, subs.. And keeps that melody on top, how do you get to that point?
Ken

[grahambop]

That's awesome how amazing he plays Body and Soul, so much movement, subs.. And keeps that melody on top, how do you get to that point?
Ken

Bear in mind what Kurt says in the video, a lot of the time he is just playing the root and 7th, or the 5th and 3rd, of each chord, which leaves him a couple of fingers to create some melody notes above the chords. Because he keeps it moving so much, it sounds like there's a lot more harmony going on than there really is.

So I guess it would be worth practising over and over through the tune, just playing those root and 7th, 5th and 3rd, i.e. just 2-note chords, wherever you can locate them on the fingerboard. Then start doing them for the tritone subs as well, like he says, to create a bit more variety and movement. When you've got that foundation totally solid, you can start putting some melody notes above them.

I think this is basically what Kurt was advocating, if I got his point correctly.

[matt.guitarteacher]

That's awesome how amazing he plays Body and Soul, so much movement, subs.. And keeps that melody on top, how do you get to that point?
Ken

But actually not just subs. He's limiting voicings to an arbitrary two chord tones as an étude all the way through the form. Then, the same, with the other two chord tones. Then alternating to create movement, then the tritones....

Arbitrary limitations which create an exercise, in an of themselves, teaching you more fretboard knowledge, while at the same time, sparking creativity and introducing new sounds. All without really getting into advanced harmony or substitutions.

Really excellent material in the video.

[guitarplayer007]

Thanks Grahambop, going to work on that!!
Ken

[grahambop]

Thanks Grahambop, going to work on that!!
Ken

Yeah, so am I, Kurt made it sound so cool!

[docbop]

That's awesome how amazing he plays Body and Soul, so much movement, subs.. And keeps that melody on top, how do you get to that point?
Ken

Simple plant your butt in a chair and experiment with it.

Just take what he said work with Root and 7th then 3rd and 5th as the chords and add melody. If that is too much start even simpler two notes chord tone and melody, then three, and so on. The thing is you're working with Body and Soul but you're mainly learn a concept you can apply to other tunes. You spend a few months or a year on this you will be able to open any fake book and play simple chord melodies first time thru, but it starts with play with two notes.

Jazz is music you learn by doing it is a language you learn to speak by listening and experimenting. Like we did as kids learning to talk. No one give you a dictionary and said there's words and meanings now go talk to gramma. You listen to people emulated the sounds you heard and watched the reaction and make mental note of it.

[guitarplayer007]

Will plant tonight

[AlainJazz]

Ken, here's an exercise that has helped me a lot and might give you useful insight into chord movement:

Choose any tune you like, preferably one whose changes you know well. Stick to one string set at a time. Take the first chord and play it in the first inversion that you can grab. Now play through the tune while forcing yourself to move physically up the neck with every new chord. The next chord will always be some inversion of the changes, and you should always grab the next closest inversion of the next chord. Continue until you can't move up the neck any further. With the next chord, do the same thing but now moving physically down the neck. This will ingrain all the chord inversions into your hands and brain. It's important that you do this based on a real tune.

Repeat the exercise starting on a different inversion of the first chord.

Once you can do this, you will easily be able to create movement and it will improve your voice leading a lot.

[guitarplayer007]

Thanks Alain, that sounds like a great exercise!!!
Ken

[MarkRhodes]

Ken, here's an exercise that has helped me a lot and might give you useful insight into chord movement:

Choose any tune you like, preferably one whose changes you know well. Stick to one string set at a time. Take the first chord and play it in the first inversion that you can grab. Now play through the tune while forcing yourself to move physically up the neck with every new chord...

Wow, that's a great sounding exercise. I'll have to give this a go. Thanks!

[vintagelove]

Both subs and movement..for instance if you have a measure of EbMaj7..what can you do?
Ken

It depends on the situation. Let's say it goes to the IV chord next, you could walk up the diatonic chords

Eb fm gm Bbm7b5(or Bbdim).... Ab...... You could also do those chords in quartal harmony.

Barry Harris might suggest, Eb6 Fdim Eb6/G Dbm7b5 .... Ab


If it were to be the last chord of the form, going back to an Eb, you could turn it into a I Vi ii V.


So, any technique or method is still going to have to work in the context of the tune.

[guitarplayer007]

Just screwing around root and melody..I can see if you start with basic and keep adding it can sound nice...Kind of what Martin Taylor does.
Ken