Looking for the best book on creating chord movement to use on standards

[guitarplayer007]

Ok, Matt - chill out, Bro'!

Sorry if I don't dance to your tune or timetable. I'm also copying medical records now for my (former) patients. It is more than an obligation - I have to prioritize my time. If I don't get these records out - copied one by one on my Canon copier - I can be in trouble for the delay. I know you don't understand my situation - I don't expect you to understand.

I was "dialoging" with GP007, who like some of the posters here, suggested that it was absurd that a doctor could not afford a $50 webcam to post videos. I won't repeat my response - you can read it for yourself. Perhaps music teachers are rolling in the dough these days. I assure you that primary care docs are not, unless you live in some godforsaken remote area in the Midwest where physicians are scarce. I live in RI - the northeast - where there is a high concentration of physicians. RI recently was named in a study as the second worst place to practice medicine in the country - NY came in first.

So I was explaining to GP007 that I have a son to send to college next year, and I had to close my practice thanks to the influence of Washington policies in league with the corporate consolidation and the rape of healthcare by health insurers. This may be of no interest or consequence to you, but it surely has impacted me as a physician and my family over the past 15 years of near-Depression economic stagnation and decline. In any case, GP007 works in the financial sector, which is largely responsible for the Depression which we are in currently and stagnation that has clobbered the Middle Class, whose income gains are paltry besides the soaring percent increase in the income of the 1%. Especially when our friend, GP007, like others here on this forum, assume that doctors are rolling in dough.

If only we could profit from the ignorance and low IQ of the population in this country, we would be in great financial shape. Or maybe that is the problem - the FIRE financial sector has done just that, escaping accountability and criminal charges for cratering the economy. Perhaps you think posting some videos to teach someone how to play a jazz tune is more important than preventing our economy from circling down the toilet. I don't.

Evasive? How about the evasion of accountability in Washington? In the financial sector on Wall St. and the banking industry? Anyway, I said that was the last post of a political nature. I made the exception to respond to you. Frankly because I don't do personal messaging on this sort of thing.

But let's go back to arguing over inconsequential stuff. After all, ignorance is what keeps those in power safe from retribution and justice. Washington will thank you.

Maybe I should look up the average income a ENT Dr and see how it compares to the average income of most Americans...Then whine to me about being broke!!!!

[targuit]

GP007 - You can play the blues. Taking accountability? That is another question. Evasive? In spades, Bro.

See, the problem is ignorance. You don't know the difference between an ENT who performs procedures and an internist or pediatrician who takes care of a vast gamma of health problems.

Do you have any friends who are internists or pediatricians? Ask them about how things are going.

A dialogue doesn't work well when only one person knows what they are talking about. Why don't you answer the questions I asked you?

And you still have not commented on my analysis of My Romance. Why?

One last thing that both of you are doubtlessly clueless about. I assume you like to get paid for your work. I do, too. For the entire 30 year span of my career as a physician in practice, I got paid less than 50 cents on the dollar reimbursement for the identical service when I cared for Medicaid patients. That is, for the identical service for two categories of patients - Medicaid and commercially insured patients - I as paid less than 50 cents on the dollar. And what did I get for that "charity care"? More crap from Washington and the state.

There is no "free market" in medicine. The game is rigged, just like on Wall St. And in Washington.

[guitarplayer007]

I'm just a fucking worker Bee in a cube....what part of that don't you get!!!

[guitarplayer007]

GP007 - You can play the blues. Taking accountability? That is another question. Evasive? In spades, Bro.

See, the problem is ignorance. You don't know the difference between an ENT who performs procedures and an internist or pediatrician who takes care of a vast gamma of health problems.

Do you have any friends who are internists or pediatricians? Ask them about how things are going.

A dialogue doesn't work well when only one person knows what they are talking about

Ty for the first part

[targuit]

Anyway, I am going to try and leave this thread alone. You guys talk about...whatever it is you trying to master. I will post videos of my playing on a separate thread.

So you're just a cog in the machine, eh? Well as a physician, so was I. But I am not a coward.

[mr. beaumont]

Sooo....that was an interesting read.

But, going waaaay back to page 1, a cool topic, that I missed until today somehow.

Books and stuff is great, but if we're looking at the situation of creating some movement over a long stretch of say, a single major chord, it's not that hard.

First thing I think of is the other diatonic chords...then removing the low roots, I have a bunch of clusters that can be played at will and lead me towards the next chord in the tune. I can approach those from a half step above or below too, always sounds good, adding a little tension and release where things are static...

depending on the tune, a log stretch of I, you can hint at ii and V too...gotta be a little more careful there, I suppose.

Same thing could be done quartally.

It's important to look at comping for what it is...it's not just playing through some grips and getting through the tune...a good comper should be thinking melodically...because like it or not, unless you're bashing out freddie green percussive style guitar, the top note in all your voicings becomes a counter melody.

I can do a video, maybe, this afternoon. I'll try. No need to overthink....at least until you've exhausted what you already know.

[plasticpigeon]

"See, the problem is ignorance. You don't know the difference between an ENT who performs procedures and an internist or pediatrician who takes care of a vast gamma of health problems"

I assume you mean gamut, which is a good word to use on this forum as not only does it mean a vast range of, but it also means the whole series of recognised musical notes.

[Jehu]

First thing I think of is the other diatonic chords...then removing the low roots, I have a bunch of clusters that can be played at will and lead me towards the next chord in the tune. I can approach those from a half step above or below too, always sounds good, adding a little tension and release where things are static...

depending on the tune, a log stretch of I, you can hint at ii and V too...gotta be a little more careful there, I suppose.

This is basically the method that Fareed Haque teaches in his "Survival Guide" on TrueFire. That series is solid gold, and sounds like exactly what the OP might be looking for if he doesn't want to get mired down in theory.

[christianm77]

I wonder how much the original poster has learned about harmonic movement?

[destinytot]

it's not just playing through some grips and getting through the tune...a good comper should be thinking melodically...because like it or not, unless you're bashing out freddie green percussive style guitar, the top note in all your voicings becomes a counter melody.

To add to the part in bold, the counter melody's there even though it may not 'sing/cut through' - and that counter melody constitutes movement.

I don't know many chord grips in Marty Grosz tuning, but as long as I take them for a walk I find I don't need many (though I want more because I want to be able to improvise chord solos in this style).

[guitarplayer007]

This is out of control, I thought we would see more musical examples by folks who were great at chord movement and could give great insight how to actually make it happen

[MarkRhodes]

It's important to look at comping for what it is...it's not just playing through some grips and getting through the tune...a good comper should be thinking melodically...because like it or not, unless you're bashing out freddie green percussive style guitar, the top note in all your voicings becomes a counter melody.

Uh, that's just what Freddie Green was doing! It's why he often played (or voiced, muting the rest) just one note. Pulse and counter-melody was his specialty.

Here's a great example of that, Freddie with Herb Ellis doing Charlie Christian's "A Smooth One."

[docbop]

It's important to look at comping for what it is...it's not just playing through some grips and getting through the tune...a good comper should be thinking melodically...because like it or not, unless you're bashing out freddie green percussive style guitar, the top note in all your voicings becomes a counter melody.

VAn Epps, Bill Evans and others viewed comp'ing not as chord grips, but more like a Bach Chorale where it's multiple lines moving in parallel. Why need to practice comp'ing II-V's to build your toolbox of chord movements same as working on single line.

[NSJ]

The most flexible way of play melodically while maintaining some semblance of changes I have found is three note voicings with the guide tones (3rds and 7ths).

I had actually discovered this on my own, and then realized that Tim Lerch has really really got this down to a science. He has a video on it for sale, and I took a couple Skype lessons with him . The top note can be conceived as either measured against the key center or the particular chord of the moment (#5 of V, as one example). Tim's preference is the latter. You can also be flexible with this, and use the third and the sixth of the chord instead of the 3rd and 7th. I highly recommend checking Tim's work out, he is really professional and a really nice guy too.

Fareed puts his GTs on strings 4 and 3, while Tim's preference is strings 5 and 4. Obviously, you can also play these on strings six and five, but that's a little harder, I found . The best practice is to play them on all three string sets, to give you the most options and not be technically Limited .

The surefire easiest way to make an instant ii-V is to take your third and seventh two note voicing and suspend the third, transforming the V into the ii chord. It really doesn't get any easier than that.

The advantage of the three note system that Tim presents is twofold: you can comp in a way that presents a countermelody to the singer that doesn't step on her or his toes and doesn't get in the way of the bass player. And it makes for a very cool way of playing a chord solo that is melodic and still addresses the changes. You can transform it into a "locked hands" piano thing (Bill Evans, George Shearing, etc) by giving all three notes the same rhythmic value.

[mr. beaumont]

Uh, that's just what Freddie Green was doing! It's why he often played (or voiced, muting the rest) just one note. Pulse and counter-melody was his specialty.

Here's a great example of that, Freddie with Herb Ellis doing Charlie Christian's "A Smooth One."

Very true---the big difference of course, is where the countermelody sits in the total picture.

[NSJ]

The advantage of placing the guide tones on strings four and three (Fareed s preference ) is that you can more easily seamlessly integrate them with the root note and do the Freddie green shell voicing thing very easily ( with the root either on the sixth or the fifth string ).

The advantage of placing the guide tones on strings five and four (Tim's preference ) is that it gives you a wider range of melody note possibilities on the guitar in any given position ( more or less extends the range of melodic note possibilities by a fifth in contrast to placing the guide tones on strings 4 and 3)

[MarkRhodes]

The most flexible way of play melodically while maintaining some semblance of changes I have found is three note voicings with the guide tones (3rds and 7ths).

I had actually discovered this on my own, and then realized that Tim Lerch has really really got this down to a science. He has a video on it for sale, and I took a couple Skype lessons with him . The top note can be conceived as either measured against the key center or the particular chord of the moment (#5 of V, as one example). Tim's preference is the latter. You can also be flexible with this, and use the third and the sixth of the chord instead of the 3rd and 7th. I highly recommend checking Tim's work out, he is really professional and a really nice guy too.

I agree that Tim is a great guy, and a good teacher. Here's the trailer for the lesson of Tim's that (I think) you are talking about.

[destinytot]

I agree that Tim is a great guy, and a good teacher. Here's the trailer for the lesson of Tim's that (I think) you are talking about.

Ooh! Lenny on a Tele - nice! Think I'll plum for that one myself.

[destinytot]

Re. the question of best book for creating chord movement, how about Ted Greene's CHORD CHEMISTRY?

[christianm77]

The advantage of placing the guide tones on strings four and three (Fareed s preference ) is that you can more easily seamlessly integrate them with the root note and do the Freddie green shell voicing thing very easily ( with the root either on the sixth or the fifth string ).

The advantage of placing the guide tones on strings five and four (Tim's preference ) is that it gives you a wider range of melody note possibilities on the guitar in any given position ( more or less extends the range of melodic note possibilities by a fifth in contrast to placing the guide tones on strings 4 and 3)

Good point.

Best to cultivate flexibility in all things. I've been looking a lot at various voicings of seventh chords recently (aside from the obvious drop 2 & 3 voicings), but there's a lot that can be done with two notes. A lot of the time you don't even need a root note, even when playing solo.

[Reg]

So Chord movement... It doesn't look like many on the form really understand what a harmonic analysis is, so maybe just skip the technical aspects, hell maybe skip any harmonic aspects.

There are differences between what actual notes and how they move and interact... your performance,

and the organization which creates harmonic movement, chordal movement.

Playing two notes... guide tones, one note, melodic lines, full chords... any way you choose to comp, is not the organization behind chordal movement. It's just what you or someone else decides to play. Micro or target performance techniques for comping... the realization of what's going on harmonically.

Your not going to be able to create chordal movement when you can hardly play the changes, or don't understand what's creating the chordal movement.... harmonically. Not just how you choose to play notes that are suppose to imply the changes. The voicings, the intervals, notes and note movements, (voice leading)... is not harmony, is not harmonic organization... they're all just your choice, or someone else's choice of what to play.

I do understand that for many of you.... just being able to play the changes... musically is difficult.

So maybe a simple approach for most to take, with the goal of being able to create chordal movement is to use very basic organizational concepts to create that movement.

Think of chords as having chordal movement power... some have more than others. Which tends to make some chords more at rest than others. Basically there are three different types of chords...

Tonic chords..... chords or tonal areas that are at rest, have the least amount of that movement power.

Dominant chords... chords or tonal areas that have the most movement power

Subdominant.... chords in the middle, have some movement power, but can move either way, either to chords with more movement power or chords with less.... or just hang, don't need to move.

There are a few methods of organizing how these types of chords move, and the standard organization is called Functional Harmony which creates the guidelines, the rules and reasons for chordal movement. But forget it, skip the whole thing.... all you really need is an understanding of how to use this power... chordal movement power.

And the simple method or application for plug and play performance is to just use with simple types of movement formulas.

The basic formula for Chordal Movement is...

Tonic to subdominant to Dominant and then back to Tonic... (T...SD....D....T)

You can change the organization anyway you choose... some patterns or order of the chord types work better than others.

T...D...T
T...D...SD...T
SD...D...SD
SD...D...T etc... these formula become your analysis, the basic harmonic analysis of what your playing, of Tunes.

And your going to find that there are different references... different tunes, which are your basic reference, your tonal reference for using chordal movement power.

The chords can also change, the chords in each movement power category. Dominant or D chords are not always the most powerful or want to move ... Blues etc... the concept is what you need to grasp, organization of which chords are going to create movement. The most important aspect of chords is the root... everything else comes after that basic reference.

In most standards...
Tonic's (T) chords are Imaj7s...III-7's and VI-7 chords
SD are the II-7's and IVmaj7's
D are V7's and VII-7b5 chords.

This starts to get more complicated when you get past the basic I IV V or I II V etc... but chordal movement is still organized and based on that basic principle of categorizing chords into movement power groups. You can even just use two or even one of the power categories. You just need to be aware of which group(s) your going to throw the actual chords, voicings, lines, anyway you choose to realize, or perform.... how you organize what's in each chord group.

I'll try and start some examples of how different tunes and styles of tunes have "common practice" of which power groups chords are in... I'm way too busy... but this approach might help some of you get what comping and creating chord movement is.

[guitarplayer007]

Thanks Reg,

I just printed this out!!!
Ken

[matt.guitarteacher]

Re. the question of best book for creating chord movement, how about Ted Greene's CHORD CHEMISTRY?

Man, this book. A lot of people love it, and many loath it. Off the top of my head (it's been a while since I looked at it), the front section is somewhat of a chord encyclopedia. You'll get some degree of "movement" over static chords by simply playing different voicings for a given chord type I suppose. There are other sections of the book, however, which have more on progressions/concepts etc., chords which work well together for ii-V-I's etc. To me that's where the "chemistry" comes in. I'd guess that many people who hate the book never looked at the back sections much. That being said, I never did much with it, but I'm not always a good "student". Too many books in the stack I guess.

Some of his fingerings are beastly though. Everyone's physiology is different. Don't hurt yourself on chords you can't play, especially in cold winter months.

[docbop]

Some of his fingerings are beastly though. Everyone's physiology is different. Don't hurt yourself on chords you can't play, especially in cold winter months.

I studied with Ted for awhile and I remember mentioning the stretches on some chords. Ted puts his hand down and starts pulling on his fingers stretching them out. Ted says you can work on your reach the cartilage will stretch some. Then Ted gives you his look that you're not sure if he's serious or kidding with you.

Today you can waste $140 on a Liszt hand stretcher to increase your reach.

http://www.increasehandspan.com/apps...s/show/5533579

[matt.guitarteacher]

I studied with Ted for awhile and I remember mentioning the stretches on some chords. Ted puts his hand down and starts pulling on his fingers stretching them out. Ted says you can work on your reach the cartilage will stretch some.

Yeah, stretching is helpful regardless. Keith Jarrett talked about constantly stretching his hands at school when he was a kid because he has/had very small hands.